[rallison203]

So, let's clear something up: The CRANK position sensor (sometimes abbreviated CKP) is not used for timing. If you are switching out the reluctor ring on the crankshaft, it should have no bearing on your timing.
The CAMSHAFT position sensor (Sometimes abbreviated CMP) IS used for base timing adjustment. It is driven off the back of bank 1 exhaust cam. It's entirely possible I misunderstood your question, but let's begin with the assumption that you are talking about changing the sensor on #1 head, near the firewall.
Start with does your car have the under hood connector for jumpering pins? If not, then do you know anyone with a Tech2? If you have the connector, then use the FSM to jumper and you'll be fine. If no connector, and you have access to a Tech2, then go that route. If none of those pan out for you (which is the situation I'm in) then set it where you find witness marks from previous, then adjust by ear/feel a few times and you'll get it close. It helps if you've set timing on old distributor ignitions and can tune by hearing how the engine runs.
(now I'll go back and see if my previous post makes me look like an ignoramus... )

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I missed your post somehow.

Back when we were talking about interchange parts and reluctor rings, it's possible one of us got our wires crossed. No worries.

I'm going to see if my Bluetooth scan tool has this freeze timing function. If not, then I'll have to figure something out. Because the 02 Tracker doesn't have the under-hood diagnosic connector you mentioned, and I don't have a Tech2 nor do I know anyone who does.

HOWEVER and thank you for understanding my question, I plan to do exactly what you suggest. In fact I've already done it. The 2.5 CMP sensor is now installed in the 2.7. My biggest concern was that I'd install it 180 degrees off. However that's not possible due to the offset in the slot where the sensor marries up to the camshaft.

I calibrated it by using the grease marks where the bolts were installed previously. The engine should at least fire off. I'll have to figure out some way to fine tune it.

 

[rallison203]

Fixed spark sets the ecm to provide 0 degrees adjustment which then allows you to set the timing to the required 5 degrees. If you don't do that, the ecm will be advancing or retarding the spark for optimum running according to its internal algorithms.
These algorithms are based on the premise the base timing is correct. If its not then the timing advancing or retarding will be out of spec and performance will suffer at best, significant engine damage is possible at worst.

To adjust timing on an 87 AMC 360 with Duraspark ignition, you remove manifold vacuum from the distributor and use the timing light to set base timing. Then you reinstall the vacuum line to get your vacuum advance.

I'm not seeing how this process is hugely different. But that's ok. I'm a little slow on the uptake.

 

[L84sky]

I don't have a Tech2 nor do I know anyone who does.

It does not need to be a Tech 2 but it does have to be a scanner programmed for your car. A generic Bluetooth scanner will read live data and codes but does not have bi-directional communication. Any reputable shop should have a scanner capable of setting your timing for you.

I'm not seeing how this process is hugely different

It's not very different. The PCM just takes the place of the vacuum advance.

 

[2013GV]

I concur, the scan tool effectively takes place of removing the vacuum on older style distributor systems. Except....... the computer is also taking the place of mechanical fly weight and vacuum advance functions. So you have to tell the computer to stop altering timing to set the base timing.

The computer can also retard from set point, my 2.4 goes from about 15 degrees atdc to about 40 degrees btdc.

 

[L84sky]

The PCM control of spark timing is a tad more sophisticated than a simple vacuum advance.

 

[L84sky]

I am posing this as a question because I don't know if it would really work but if the PCM defaults to 5° below 500 RPM could you pull fuel pump relay and adjust the CMP sensor with a timing light while an assistant held the key in the START position?

 

[skills4lou]

Similar work around thought: I wonder if a guy could just use a one way scan tool ( most can show timing), then add the 5 degrees and set it with the light? Probably not enough markings on the cover for higher rpm but maybe at idle? I’m gonna have to try that sometime

 

[rallison203]

I am posing this as a question because I don't know if it would really work but if the PCM defaults to 5° below 500 RPM could you pull fuel pump relay and adjust the CMP sensor with a timing light while an assistant held the key in the START position?

Similar work around thought: I wonder if a guy could just use a one way scan tool ( most can show timing), then add the 5 degrees and set it with the light? Probably not enough markings on the cover for higher rpm but maybe at idle? I’m gonna have to try that sometime

Good suggestions guys, thanks. It'll be a week or two before I'm ready to try starting the engine. All I needed to decide yesterday was which sensor to use.

I'm going to try my Bluetooth scanner on my daily driver and see if it has that feature. If not, I may buy a Tech2 or whatever will do the job.

 

[rallison203]

Also here's something interesting.

This is my second V6 Tracker engine replacement. The first time I struggled with removing the CV axle on the right side. Using a hammer and a fork tool, I broke the little inner circle clip and had to remove the broken pieces from the front diff housing.

Not this time! I didn't use any tools. I grabbed the axle with both hands and using my eye scanner / leveler I gave it about 3 bumps and it pulled STRAIGHT out. With clip intact.

 

[Max]

But why pull axles for an engine change when all you need to do is lower the front whole axle assembly intact?

H25a (V-6) Engine removal / replacement...

This will be a chronicle of events on changing out an original engine with a 50K mile replacement. The new engine is from a 2000 GV Limited 2WD, with automatic trans that I acquired several years ago. In as such, I'll have to configure it to fit the needs of my 1999 standard trans, 4WD, GV...

www.suzuki-forums.com

 

[rallison203]

That may be a good option for some folks. I wanted to remove mine for a couple reasons.

This precise subject is 1 of 2 reasons this car sat for the last 14 months. I couldn't get off the fence whether to use your method or not.

Why did I pull it?

Firstly, I wanted to clean everything. This car is straight but has a poor service history.

Second I'm almost 66 years old and removing the torque converter bolts is a full day's work for me. I can't imagine doing that with the diff half in and half out. Plus I want to clean the front diff vacuum actuator which is almost certainly rusty. That's nearly impossible with the front diff in place. Etc.

So I decided to take my time and pull everything and scrub and polish and paint and etc.

My first Tracker engine replacement went very well. It runs like a sewing machine. Im just doing it all over again, except with the 2.7L twist.

Plus I don't like grease everywhere when I reassemble everything in the engine bay.

 

[2013GV]

Similar work around thought: I wonder if a guy could just use a one way scan tool ( most can show timing), then add the 5 degrees and set it with the light? Probably not enough markings on the cover for higher rpm but maybe at idle? I’m gonna have to try that sometime

No, timing can be advanced or retarded by the ecm, unless you know what the base timing is, how do you know how much the ecm is adjusting it at idle? You put a light on your one at idle and watch the marks move as it adjusts things. You will see between 5 and 7 degrees of movement even at idle. Scanner with torque will show timing advance too. Figures aren't constant at idle like the old mechanical distributor systems

 

[rallison203]

The computer can also retard from set point, my 2.4 goes from about 15 degrees atdc to about 40 degrees btdc.

I'm assuming initial timing is 5 degrees BTDC. Not after. I can't actually confirm that anywhere.

 

[L84sky]

Here's confirmation:

 

[rallison203]

Somebody asked me to detail the interchange issues on this swap...

Here's one I never got resolved. The oil pan on my 2.7L has this weird rubber plug. I posted on the XL7 first gen forum but got no response.

Thought I'd try here one more time.

Anybody have any idea what this plug in the lower pan is for? I think it's stock. It is otherwise identical to the pan on my 2.5L.

I'll probably swap them; please someone tell me if they think that's a bad idea.

 

[fordem]

First - the parts manual for the XL-7 does not show any rubber plugs, so my guess is what you have there didn't come out of the factory that way - I'm sure some one out there with an XL-7 can confirm that it is or isn't that way from the factory.

Second - the parts manuals for the 2.5 liter GV and the 2.7 liter XL-7 show the same part number for the "pan. oil lower" so swap away.

 

[rallison203]

Thank you for looking that up.

I found more broken plastic guide pieces and a bunch of aluminum paste at the bottom of the 2.5L oil pan.

 

[rallison203]

Here's confirmation:
View attachment 106234

Thanks for this, too.

 

[rallison203]

I'm about to install the upper oil pan to the block.

Can anyone tell me whether the gasket sealant goes in this space opposite the oval o ring? Do I encircle this o ring area with sealant or just go around it?

The manual isn't clear. Thanks in advance.

 

[L84sky]

The Suzuki manual says the sealant does not go around the O-ring mating surfaces. I use Permatex Ultra Gray as my sealant. The important thing is DON"T follow the Ultra Gray instructions. They want you to let the bead harden for an hour before you torque down the bolts. Don't do that. It will leave a gap between the mating surfaces and the O-ring will not seal. Torque the upper oil pan bolts as quickly as possible. You can follow the Ultra Gray instructions for the lower oil pan if you want.