So, let's clear something up: The CRANK position sensor (sometimes abbreviated CKP) is not used for timing. If you are switching out the reluctor ring on the crankshaft, it should have no bearing on your timing.
The CAMSHAFT position sensor (Sometimes abbreviated CMP) IS used for base timing adjustment. It is driven off the back of bank 1 exhaust cam. It's entirely possible I misunderstood your question, but let's begin with the assumption that you are talking about changing the sensor on #1 head, near the firewall.
Start with does your car have the under hood connector for jumpering pins? If not, then do you know anyone with a Tech2? If you have the connector, then use the FSM to jumper and you'll be fine. If no connector, and you have access to a Tech2, then go that route. If none of those pan out for you (which is the situation I'm in) then set it where you find witness marks from previous, then adjust by ear/feel a few times and you'll get it close. It helps if you've set timing on old distributor ignitions and can tune by hearing how the engine runs.
(now I'll go back and see if my previous post makes me look like an ignoramus... )

 

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I missed your post somehow.

Back when we were talking about interchange parts and reluctor rings, it's possible one of us got our wires crossed. No worries.

I'm going to see if my Bluetooth scan tool has this freeze timing function. If not, then I'll have to figure something out. Because the 02 Tracker doesn't have the under-hood diagnosic connector you mentioned, and I don't have a Tech2 nor do I know anyone who does.

HOWEVER and thank you for understanding my question, I plan to do exactly what you suggest. In fact I've already done it. The 2.5 CMP sensor is now installed in the 2.7. My biggest concern was that I'd install it 180 degrees off. However that's not possible due to the offset in the slot where the sensor marries up to the camshaft.

I calibrated it by using the grease marks where the bolts were installed previously. The engine should at least fire off. I'll have to figure out some way to fine tune it.

 

If you cannot get a Tech2, the Launch X431 MiniPro has the capability..

 

Baring the afore mentioned, an in cylinder pressure transducer and a scope will do you well..

 

The computer makes it calculations with the assumption that 'base timing' is set correctly. In order for everything to be in spec, the best option is to time it per the FSM. No doubt about it, that's the proper way to go.

Having said that...the computer is capable of adding or subtracting many degrees of timing to match load/conditions. The problem with trial/error old school method is that the computer is adjusting things on the fly. So, without being able to lock the timing electronically (FSM method, either the port under the hood or scan tool) any adjustments you make using a timing light won't really give you any useful information/adjustments. Now...timing is a fiddly thing. If you are 2degrees off, you'll probably never know the difference. Make that 10 degrees and you'll start noticing. Using the witness marks will get you close enough start and run. Then you can move the sensor one direction a bit...see how it runs. Move a little more....any better? If yes, go a little more. If no, then you have a boundary. Now move back the other way a little, keep going until you get to a boundary. Once you have those, go back to the middle. Poof, you now have timing good enough. Pretty much the same method one would use to adjust a carburetor.
FOR THE NAYSAYERS: Yes, this is not the approved method. You are correct, this won't result in perfect timing. Apply this method at your own risk, lawyers and legal mumbo jumbo yada yada. Engines will blow up, it'll probably catch fire and burn to the ground so no one should follow my advice.This is only working on 4 of my personal vehicles, so there is absolutely no evidence that this works at all!!

 

I'm with you!
I've enough experience to find the timing sweet spot between off-performance, advanced pinging feedback, and ease of start, to dial in the appropriate tuning.

Heck! With conventional distributor systems I treat them the same way. Start w/the factory spec and then tweak for the best performance, typically slightly more advance. Fuel quality, terrain and driving style factor in as well. Works for me.

 

Thanks all. Please bear with me.

Here's the Chevy Tracker service manual vol. 2, p. 6-1700. This explains adjustments to engine timing:

"7. TURN ON Fixed Spark Mode with the scan tool"
* * *
"10 . If the timing marks are not correctly aligned, adjust the ignition timing as follows:"
* * *

The instructions then say to simply loosen the two torx bolts, twist the sensor as appropriate to advance or retard initial timing, confirm the tool shows 5 degrees, then tighten the bolts and check for 5 degrees again with a timing light. If initial timing is correct, then turn off Fixed Spark Mode. That's it. There are no other manual adjustments.

What am I missing here? Does fixed spark mode save data to the computer?

I'm trying to understand the concept. Thank you again.

 

Thanks all. Please bear with me.

Here's the Chevy Tracker service manual vol. 2, p. 6-1700. This explains adjustments to engine timing:

"7. TURN ON Fixed Spark Mode with the scan tool"
* * *
"10 . If the timing marks are not correctly aligned, adjust the ignition timing as follows:"
* * *

The instructions then say to simply loosen the two torx bolts, twist the sensor as appropriate to advance or retard initial timing, confirm the tool shows 5 degrees, then tighten the bolts and check for 5 degrees again with a timing light. If initial timing is correct, then turn off Fixed Spark Mode. That's it. There are no other manual adjustments.

What am I missing here? Does fixed spark mode save data to the computer?

I'm trying to understand the concept. Thank you again. View attachment 106217 View attachment 106217

Fixed spark sets the ecm to provide 0 degrees adjustment which then allows you to set the timing to the required 5 degrees. If you don't do that, the ecm will be advancing or retarding the spark for optimum running according to its internal algorithms.
These algorithms are based on the premise the base timing is correct. If its not then the timing advancing or retarding will be out of spec and performance will suffer at best, significant engine damage is possible at worst.

 

I don't have the experience to set the timing by ear so I bought a Tech 2 (clone). On this page of the scanner I select "Spark 5°" then choose "Fixed." With the PCM timing locked at 5° I use a timing light to adjust the CMP until the notch on the crank pulley is even with the 5° timing mark on the front engine cover. When done I select "Normal."

 

Where did you find the clone Tech 2? I wouldn’t mind owning one, just haven’t needed one enough to pay full price.

 

I bought mine directly from China.

AliExpress

You get to choose one module. I picked the GM module. You might want the Suzuki module. Or pay a little extra and get both.

 

I took a bit of a detour from electronic ignition systems for the past 10 months.

 

The dead 2.5L Tracker engine is on the hoist. No timing on the entire

right bank.

Took off the cover. Interestingly, the #1 tensioner didn't fail. I did find that the head of the R bank camshaft gear bolt had sheared off. It was wedged in the #2 chain. I also found a lot of broken plastic.

 

I concur, the scan tool effectively takes place of removing the vacuum on older style distributor systems. Except....... the computer is also taking the place of mechanical fly weight and vacuum advance functions. So you have to tell the computer to stop altering timing to set the base timing.

The computer can also retard from set point, my 2.4 goes from about 15 degrees atdc to about 40 degrees btdc.

 

The computer can also retard from set point, my 2.4 goes from about 15 degrees atdc to about 40 degrees btdc.

I'm assuming initial timing is 5 degrees BTDC. Not after. I can't actually confirm that anywhere.

 

The PCM control of spark timing is a tad more sophisticated than a simple vacuum advance.

 

I am posing this as a question because I don't know if it would really work but if the PCM defaults to 5° below 500 RPM could you pull fuel pump relay and adjust the CMP sensor with a timing light while an assistant held the key in the START position?

 

Similar work around thought: I wonder if a guy could just use a one way scan tool ( most can show timing), then add the 5 degrees and set it with the light? Probably not enough markings on the cover for higher rpm but maybe at idle? I’m gonna have to try that sometime

Good suggestions guys, thanks. It'll be a week or two before I'm ready to try starting the engine. All I needed to decide yesterday was which sensor to use.

I'm going to try my Bluetooth scanner on my daily driver and see if it has that feature. If not, I may buy a Tech2 or whatever will do the job.

 

Similar work around thought: I wonder if a guy could just use a one way scan tool ( most can show timing), then add the 5 degrees and set it with the light? Probably not enough markings on the cover for higher rpm but maybe at idle? I’m gonna have to try that sometime

 

No, timing can be advanced or retarded by the ecm, unless you know what the base timing is, how do you know how much the ecm is adjusting it at idle? You put a light on your one at idle and watch the marks move as it adjusts things. You will see between 5 and 7 degrees of movement even at idle. Scanner with torque will show timing advance too. Figures aren't constant at idle like the old mechanical distributor systems

 

Also here's something interesting.

This is my second V6 Tracker engine replacement. The first time I struggled with removing the CV axle on the right side. Using a hammer and a fork tool, I broke the little inner circle clip and had to remove the broken pieces from the front diff housing.

Not this time! I didn't use any tools. I grabbed the axle with both hands and using my eye scanner / leveler I gave it about 3 bumps and it pulled STRAIGHT out. With clip intact.

 

But why pull axles for an engine change when all you need to do is lower the front whole axle assembly intact?

H25a (V-6) Engine removal / replacement...

This will be a chronicle of events on changing out an original engine with a 50K mile replacement. The new engine is from a 2000 GV Limited 2WD, with automatic trans that I acquired several years ago. In as such, I'll have to configure it to fit the needs of my 1999 standard trans, 4WD, GV...

www.suzuki-forums.com

 

That may be a good option for some folks. I wanted to remove mine for a couple reasons.

This precise subject is 1 of 2 reasons this car sat for the last 14 months. I couldn't get off the fence whether to use your method or not.

Why did I pull it?

Firstly, I wanted to clean everything. This car is straight but has a poor service history.

Second I'm almost 66 years old and removing the torque converter bolts is a full day's work for me. I can't imagine doing that with the diff half in and half out. Plus I want to clean the front diff vacuum actuator which is almost certainly rusty. That's nearly impossible with the front diff in place. Etc.

So I decided to take my time and pull everything and scrub and polish and paint and etc.

My first Tracker engine replacement went very well. It runs like a sewing machine. Im just doing it all over again, except with the 2.7L twist.

Plus I don't like grease everywhere when I reassemble everything in the engine bay.

 

Here's confirmation:

 

Thanks for this, too.

 

Somebody asked me to detail the interchange issues on this swap...

Here's one I never got resolved. The oil pan on my 2.7L has this weird rubber plug. I posted on the XL7 first gen forum but got no response.

Thought I'd try here one more time.

Anybody have any idea what this plug in the lower pan is for? I think it's stock. It is otherwise identical to the pan on my 2.5L.

I'll probably swap them; please someone tell me if they think that's a bad idea.

 

First - the parts manual for the XL-7 does not show any rubber plugs, so my guess is what you have there didn't come out of the factory that way - I'm sure some one out there with an XL-7 can confirm that it is or isn't that way from the factory.

Second - the parts manuals for the 2.5 liter GV and the 2.7 liter XL-7 show the same part number for the "pan. oil lower" so swap away.

 

Thank you for looking that up.

I found more broken plastic guide pieces and a bunch of aluminum paste at the bottom of the 2.5L oil pan.

 

I'm about to install the upper oil pan to the block.

Can anyone tell me whether the gasket sealant goes in this space opposite the oval o ring? Do I encircle this o ring area with sealant or just go around it?

The manual isn't clear. Thanks in advance.

 

The Suzuki manual says the sealant does not go around the O-ring mating surfaces. I use Permatex Ultra Gray as my sealant. The important thing is DON"T follow the Ultra Gray instructions. They want you to let the bead harden for an hour before you torque down the bolts. Don't do that. It will leave a gap between the mating surfaces and the O-ring will not seal. Torque the upper oil pan bolts as quickly as possible. You can follow the Ultra Gray instructions for the lower oil pan if you want.

 

Thank you!

Also I researched the lower pan sealant the last time I did this. According to Suzuki, they never used sealant on the lower pan. Just a gasket. Felpro recommends same. That's what I did on my LT and I haven't had any problems.

I use Ultra Gray too. Suzuki recommends a 2nd sealant, black, for some of the corners. There's a TSB on that in Max's stash.

Now my oil pans are all sealed up, with new O rings on the pickup tube. Yesterday I installed a new #1 timing tensioner, new water pump and several new guides. I got a new CPK sensor which is a lessons-learned from my prior install.

I'll be sealing up the timing cover tomorrow.

 

I have two unused Fel-Pro lower oil pan gaskets left over. I didn't use them because my car did not come from the factory with a lower oil pan gasket. Here a link to a past discussion: Oil Pan Replacement - Gasket or No gasket?

Now my oil pans are all sealed up... I'll be sealing up the timing cover tomorrow.

Don't the oil pans and valve covers go on after the timing cover is installed?