Nobody with XL7 clutch experience?

The clutch may need a little further inspection. It is pretty much depressed right down on the fire wall to get it to work. I do notice that the peddle spec is way out of whack (close to 2" of play instead of >1" called for in the book) The clutch seems to have pretty good grip so I'm going to see if it can be adjusted to get the peddle in the right spot. Noticed that it is a much heavier "feel" then the new one installed on my Tracker.

Regarding to skid pan.... looks like engine plate from a Vitara is a straight fit, the transfer case is a different story (will probably need to build something).

Martin

 

I've got experience, but not on your XL.

First I suggest that you follow this thread and get the Service Manual...
http://www.suzuki-forums.com/suzuki...ms.com/suzuki-vitara-grand-vitara-xl-7/30456-guinea-pig-wanted-test-new-xl.html

Your clutch issue...hydraulically actuated I assume. Have you checked the Clutch Master Cylinder for fluid level? The piping and Slave Cylinder for leaks? Actually observed if your Slave is pushing the Clutch Release Arm fully?

If all appears normal up to that, you may have a bent Clutch Release Arm OR the release bearing and / or pressure plate are toast.

Got any noises associated with clutch disengagement? :huh:

 

I use the AllData web site for service.

Levels good, No leaks, no noises, just a very low firm peddle. Will look first at the adjustment of the peddle.

Thanks

Martin

 

You may want to try a simple clutch system BLEED first.

But experience has taught me that IF that helps, you've got a leak somewhere.

 

Max, Ok.... if you define leak as fluid not remaining contained within the "system"... I did have a very minor leak on the clutch master.

Its kind of funny that when I look back on my Tracker history at almost the same Km's I started to work on the clutch!

As a bit of background, I purchased the XL7 expecting a clutch job. What I've found so far was a wet clutch push rod, so yup the master was leaking. I discovered that after you suggested the bleed. The clutch fluid was black so obviously the master piston was packing it in (and if history repeats itself I expect the slave to follow). I changed out the master, re bleed the system. I also replaced the push rod bushing insert (plastic) with a machined brass insert to take up some of the slop in the peddle. The end result is the clutch appears to grip good with no chatter or slippage. Its still a little stiffer then the Tracker but I guess it may be a heavier design.

I doubt this leaves me free and clear of a clutch job as "nothing lasts forever" but that may (if luck is on my side) be a few Km's down the road.

Which brings me back to one of my first questions, do you have to pull the "y" pipe to do a clutch job? Mind you, after having a bit of a look, it looks like yes is the answer. Too bad, as the one thing I hate more then having to do the clutch would be having to futz with the exhaust system! I'm guessing the best way to go is to unbolt the from the bottom of the twin CAT's and perhaps the split mid point of the exhaust running to the back.... of course all the bolts will snap off and it will be a joy to repair.... that is after I get some band-aids to repair my bashed knuckles

Cheers

Martin

 

You and I have the same outlook about working on old exhaust systems Martin.

Penetrating oil allowed to SOAK might do it. A quick spray and twist will render busted off fasteners. But again, I haven't pulled your style vehicles tranny, but the norm is to pull the exhaust at the "Y" on most vehicles.

I did have a very minor leak on the clutch master

And the previous owner ran it dry, filled the reservoir without bleeding, you had air trapped in the system and I'll wager a bunch on it.

So good news on your clutch!

Funny thing is, I got my Zuke from it's previous owners (friends to this day) as they thought that the clutch required replacement as well, so they opted to sell it off. I found that the Master was leaking out the back and into the area where the pedal linkage comes through the firewall and puddling fluid under the front floor mat. I replaced the Master and that was 5 years ago and all is still well, including an accumulated 248K miles on the original clutch proper! All highway and no off-road miles here.

 

Max, A good friend of mine who's background is in the aviation industry sent me a study on penetrating fluids. All the big names were put to some very scientific tests and the winner?..... a 50-50 mix of Accetone and Automatic transmission fluid. Of course, I find you might as well snap all the stuff off and accept your fate

Regarding the clutch, well I can't find anything actually wrong with the way the clutch works I find the "this" 2.7 clutch quite "heavy" compared to my 2L Tracker. (And I have driven transport trucks). I'm thinking the slave may have picked up some material from the master (even after a good bleed). Will post back if I find anything.

BTW, no offence intended to the moderator of this forum but there is not much traffic for this platform. In fact I have yet to find a truly "active" forum for the XL7. I also have a Jetta TDI and the forum is just bursting with ton's of online advice:

TDIClub Forums - Powered by vBulletin

Do you have any tips on any other forums?

Thanks

Martin

 

Of the several Zuk forums that I am aware off, this one is by far the busiest. I think that the lack of MORE activity is just due to the relatively low production numbers of our Suzuki's (particularly the XL) as opposed to let's say a CRV or Rav's and alike.

Here is another site that may work better for you.
ZUKIWORLD Online | Your Suzuki Enthusiast Community Forum - Index


On your pedal effort...you may be on to something with regard to the slave. I find my GV's pedal just fine, compared to just about anything else I've driven. Your only other issues COULD be the splined portion of the trans input shaft, the release arm pivot points or the pressure plate proper. Let's hope not though. Got any "chatter" problems?!? :huh:

That's a potent mixture of penetrating oil that you recipe'd out! In the Navy, we use to hit up the Corpsman for liquid wintergreen. It worked well AND smelled good too!

 

Ok, here is an update on my clutch....

Both master and slave cylinders required replacement but did not solve the "funky feel" of the clutch peddle. Again, very stiff with a substantial amount of force to depress along with a squeak from some place within the bell housing.

So.... Pulled the transmission to inspect and discovered:

-the clutch throw-out bearing was binding to the point it was almost seized onto the input shaft housing. It took a substantial amount of force to slide the bearing off of the housing. It looks like a combination of old grease and clutch dust or dirt had accumulated to the point that the bearing would not slide on the housing. After cleaning the input shaft housing there is no damage to the housing, there is a little/normal wear on the fork but still in usable condition.

The clutch was actually in fair to OK condition but I decided to install a complete clutch kit, including getting the flywheel refinished and new rear engine seal.

Much to my surprise, with the help of my special brew of penetrating oil (50/50 mix of ATF and Accetone) I was able to unbolt all of the exhaust components (no bashed knuckles!)

I'm not in a hurry, so I was tackling the job a few hours at a time. The hardest task so far was to disconnect the stinking O2 sensors! Its a tough reach and difficult to get both hands on each side of the fitting to pop them apart (and push the retainer clip).

I've had trouble getting the CAT to Y pipe gaskets. Suzuki dealers (my local dealers are pretty poor) want an arm and a leg for the gaskets and don't carry them in stock. I got "Jobber parts" but they are the large flat plate type (universal) and don't look like they will be as good as the original.

At this point I'm waiting for the flywheel to come back from the shop and expect to re-install this weekend.

If I had some advice for anybody thinking about tackling this job (if your confident in tackling a clutch/tranny job of course) is get some very long 1/2" drive extensions (24-36"), they allow you to deal with all of the 17mm bolts used around the top of the bell housing (along with a very good quality 17mm socket and universal). With the long extensions you can shoot a good access line from well back down the side of the transmission.

Oh, and don't forget the special brew to crack loose the exhaust system!

Cheers

Martin

 

Stiff clutch, dragging when hot

Ok, here is an update on my clutch....

Both master and slave cylinders required replacement but did not solve the "funky feel" of the clutch peddle. Again, very stiff with a substantial amount of force to depress along with a squeak from some place within the bell housing.

So.... Pulled the transmission to inspect and discovered:

-the clutch throw-out bearing was binding to the point it was almost seized onto the input shaft housing. It took a substantial amount of force to slide the bearing off of the housing. It looks like a combination of old grease and clutch dust or dirt had accumulated to the point that the bearing would not slide on the housing. After cleaning the input shaft housing there is no damage to the housing, there is a little/normal wear on the fork but still in usable condition.

Cheers

Martin

Aha! Glad someone here actually got their hands dirty and pulled the tranny to pinpoint the problem.

I bought my '02 XL-7 back in February with only 82k miles on it. First thing I noticed was the ultra-heavy clutch...manliest clutch I have ever used; my left leg muscles were sore after a week of ownership :lol: Otherwise it engages/disengages fine and there are no leaks/mushiness in the hydraulics.

Anyways, after putting on another 10k miles, the clutch feels about the same and leg muscles feel quite strong. Also, there is a creaking sound coming from the fork/throwout bearing area especially in dry weather. Definitely sounds like the throwout bearing needs some cleaning/lube to slide more easily on the input shaft, like Martin discovered. Spraying WD-40 past the fork access boot reduced the creaking a bit, but it's still there.

Furthermore, after extended city driving with the drivetrain warmed up, it gets quite hard to engage 1st or reverse from a stop. Something is definitely spinning the input shaft even with the clutch disengaged. My guess is that this could be either the throwout or pilot bearings are seizing up when hot.

Either way, looks like a clutch change will be needed in the near future. Will post when I get around to it

Great forum!
Ivan

P.S. A few questions to Martin just to clarify:

1) What condition was the throwout bearing in when you took it off? Was it dry and rough, or was the bearing itself still fine?? Also, you said that the bearing slides on the input shaft HOUSING. Is this housing STATIONARY, with respect to the input shaft?

2) Did you inspect the pilot bearing? Was there any problem there?

Trying to pinpoint the dragging problem before taking off the tranny...
Thanks again!

 

You did it up right Martin!

Glad that it's turning out well for you.

 

Hi Towforce,
When a clutch get very old, the mecanism get corroded and so, that's why the clutch get very tight. Usually, a clutch which is 200 000 km is pretty dead, so if yours is 300 000 km, it is good to be replaced.
Do not forget you need the little plastic shaft tool to center the disc of the clutch before screwing back the clutch mecanism onto the cranckshaft. often, the plastic shaft tool is included into the clutch kit.

 

Martin,

My apologies if this is hijacking your thread but I think I have a problem similar to yours. My 2001 XL7 has 145,000kms and I replaced both master and slave last year shortly after purchasing it (because of leaks and low pedal).

But the clutch still doesn't feel 'quite right'. It was better, not halfway to the floor, but still very stiff for a hydraulic system, much stiffer say than my Integra. The binding clutch throwout bearing that you discovered on yours could be my problem as well.

I guess my question is do you think you could have freed it up without removing the transmission? Could the buildup have been dissolved/removed with some sort of spay on solvent/degreaser? And could you even spray that in there without removing the transmission?

Again, congratulations on finding your problem. If I have to I will pull the tranny this summer but I hope to avoid it if possible.

Brian

 

Jumping in here...

Could the buildup have been dissolved/removed with some sort of spay on solvent/degreaser? And could you even spray that in there without removing the transmission?

That is a good question.

Trouble is...access TO the trans input splined shaft, pressure plate center section and throw-out bearing area (what needs cleaning and re-lube) is extremely limited. You'd have to remove the slave cylinder and try and force some cleaner & lube directed at those components. It would be a crap shoot really, but more importantly, any of that sprayed in medium would in all likelihood contaminate the clutch friction faces. In turn, you'd probably cause clutch engagement chatter and slippage as an end result and MAYBE free up the linkage in the process.

 

Max,

Yes, I considered the possibility of the cleaning solution contaminating the clutch disc. I will probably install a new clutch if I have to take it apart simply because it is such a major piece of work. At this point I am probably "clutching" at straws (pun intended:lol as these shortcut methods rarely work for me.

I will probably prepare for the worst, then spend a day before hand spraying whatever I can come up with in there in hopes of freeing it up. If it doesn't work, I'll just jump into the transmission removal phase with (hopefully) no harm done.

Thanks,

Brian

 

Brian,

Now, knowing the cause of "my" problem, I think you (or I could have) tried a few other options for the repair.

If you have access to a real good source of compressed air, you might want to try this....

This will work better if you can get her up on the hoist. Unbolt the clutch slave from the bell housing and remove the boot from the clutch fork. This will give you a straight line shot at the input shaft housing / throwout bearing (the pivot ball will block the center). See if you can fish some sort of extension tube into the housing and blast away (with clean air). It might even be a good idea to re-bolt the slave (with the boot off) and get somebody to pump on the clutch peddle to expose as much housing as possible.

I would not blast in any liquids yet, I would not want the possibility of getting anything migrating down the splines into the transmission housing and dragging dirt and ? onto the front of the transmission input shaft seal.

Beyond this effort you might want to see if you can very small amount of some sort of lubricant onto the input shaft housing as close as possible to the throwout bearing. Keep in mind, getting any oils on the clutch wont do clutch any good

It will be interesting to hear if you have any success.

Cheers

Martin

 

Martin,

I had not considered compressed air as I didn't think it would be able to remove the buildup you described. If you think it might work I may well give it a try.

I have been wondering if brake cleaner would contaminate the clutch disc. Break pads/shoes are of a similar design and purpose to a clutch and it doesn't seem to cause permanent damage in that application.

The end result I may just pull the tranny and have the problem solved, or at least another possible cause ruled out.

Thanks for your reply,

Brian

 

I have been wondering if brake cleaner would contaminate the clutch disc.

It wouldn't in it's sole cleaning state. I'd be more concerned about the surrounding area oil and grease that will be dislodged and find its way to the friction discs, were you really can't concentrate the cleaner action.

Then on top of that, you'll need to re-grease the areas that need it, without a re-contamination of what you just attempted to clean! :huh: You may do more harm than good.

You probably have nothing to lose on a try I guess. Worst case scenario is to open her up and change out the clutch as you have planned for a 100% fix.

How many miles and what sort of driving on the clutch?

 

Fairly low mileage, 150,000 Kms. I have only had it for 2 years so not sure how it was used. I am very easy on it, have never had a clutch failure in 30+ years of driving (knock on wood).

Currently my wife is driving it as her 03 Accord just lost the tranny. Now that is a disaster; I can't find a used low mileage replacement and a quote on a rebuild is $3700 installed taxes in.

The V6 03 model year Accord automatic transmissions have extremely poor build quality and the auto recyclers turn them over almost immediately as they come in.

Just for laughs, I phoned the dealer and priced a new one; $7,040 + tax and install. Anyone want to buy a used Honda?

 

The V6 03 model year Accord automatic transmissions have extremely poor build quality

I've got the same year Odyssey. Not sure if it's the same trans though. Mine had a recall the day they started to sell them. An additional oil distribution line to a specific gear that was prone to lack of lube. It's been fine ever since I bought it.

 

Max,

Yes, basically the same transmission. It has the BAYA version, made in US for Accords that were shipped to Canada. US models could have the same one or the MAYA version assembled in Japan. Not sure what the differences are other than location of assembly.

It was in for a recall as well, about one year after we bought it. It has 195,000 kms (about 120,000 miles) and was bought new.

I was aware of the tranny weakness from internet searches and had the fluid changed a number of times over the years. It has the 2-3 delayed shift as well as burnt fluid. The vehicle has been problem free up to this point but it's trade in value is only around $4000 so I am having trouble justifying a $3700 repair bill.

Where it is my wife's vehicle and our main highway traveler I am not comfortable tearing it apart myself. Still trying to decide what direction to go in.

Btw, apologies again to Twoforce for the thread hijack. I know you have your problem fixed but this is getting a bit off topic. If a moderator wants to move this out to another location I certainly won't complain.

 

Brian,

No problem with the twist in the thread.... any success with your XL7 clutch? After thinking about blasting the housing out with air, thinking about the risk of solvents or lubricant.... perhaps a good blast with a steam cleaner?.... or just give up and pull the tranny

Curious

Martin

 

Hi Martin,

Sorry to say I haven't even driven the XL7 in a while. My wife has taken control of it while her Accord is down.

I finally found what appears to be a half decent used transmission (2005 model, 113,000 kms, $1,700 with shipping and taxes ). Hope to receive it some time next week and have it installed shortly afterward.

I had a quick look underneath the XL7 last week and it appears I have a leaking seal. Not positive but it appears to be the transfer case. When things settle down and I get everyone else straightened away I will probably just pull the tranny and do it right.

I don't seem to mind major jobs if I can plan for them but I hate surprises. The peace of mind knowing that the clutch, throwout bearing etc is good may be worth the extra hassle.

I will post again to keep everyone updated.

Brian

 

Clutch Update

Did some clutch troubleshooting on the XL yesterday in the parking lot. First did a flush and bleed; the fluid was black and dirty. Next looked up the specs for pedal height (2cm higher than brake pedal) and freeplay (<2cm). Turns out the pedal was a bit low to begin with and there was too much slack in the pushrod. Corrected both to spec to effectively maximize the stroke of the master cylinder...and BINGO! Shifts butter smooth now, no grinding at all! Amazing what a little fine tuning will do.

While I was at it, bled the brake system (very clean fluid here) and lubed the front pad sliders and caliper bolts (caked in mud haha). Wheels spin more freely now. I think this should be done to ANY car at least once a year to maximize brake life and mpgs

 

1) What condition was the throwout bearing in when you took it off? Was it dry and rough, or was the bearing itself still fine?? Also, you said that the bearing slides on the input shaft HOUSING. Is this housing STATIONARY, with respect to the input shaft?

Don't reuse the the release bearing.
The reason it binds on on the shaft is that the bearing leaks out it's grease onto the shaft and collects all the dust and crap, then it has a hard tome sliding out far enough to disengage the clutch..

 

First do as in post #25 if you haven't already:

First did a flush and bleed; the fluid was black and dirty. Next looked up the specs for pedal height (2cm higher than brake pedal) and freeplay (<2cm). Turns out the pedal was a bit low to begin with and there was too much slack in the pushrod. Corrected both to spec to effectively maximize the stroke of the master cylinder...and BINGO! Shifts butter smooth now, no grinding at all! Amazing what a little fine tuning will do.

It will probably save you from having to replace your clutch.

 

Good to see this thread is active, had this issue for a number of years.

Just another thought I replaced my trans mount which improved the change of gears quite a bit.

But still when engine warms up gears are hard to engange at times so something is defenatly sticking.

A few years ago the gears where always getting stuck couldnt change into first or reverse and had to turn of the motor and start it in first gear with clutch depressed to get moving. This was defiantly the clutch, had that replaced but still the gears where hard to change. Master and slave cylinder was replaced too.

Gears are randomly hard to change, sometimes it goes in effortlessly other times i feel like im going to break something the amount of force that is needed to get it in gear.

Pedal only needs to be around half a centimeter of the firewall before the clutch is engaged and thats with the clutch pedal adjusted all the way out.

I guess the clutch wasn't done properly in the first place eg not cleaned and lubed. The fork was replaced though which was good.

 

Its now the 3rd day after changing my transmission mount, and gears are alot easier to change also pedal feel is a fair bit softer than what it was before and the squeak is gone when press the clutch.

I gather the transmission wasn't been lubricated properly and unballanced eg all the oil going to the prop shaft end of the transmission.

I gather my trans mount would of failed at around 120,000km cost around $50 for a new one and took around 30min to install.

You can see how stuffed it is by putting a jack under the trans, if it moves up and down way to freely its most likely the rubber on the mount has gone soft.

Engine mounts was done at 100,000k and replaced with solid rubber ones. The suzuki Oil Hydrolic ones fail way to quickly, they are mainly to reduce viabrations and engine noise, but really i cant tell the difference with the solid rubber mounts and by far cheaper at $65 each compared to $350each what suzuki wanted for them. Front mounts are also very easy to change, just make sure you support the engine with a few jacks before removing them