Ok, pulled it apart again (starting to get pretty good at this) but nothing that appears to solve the mystery.

Right now I’m leaning toward installing the new sprockets that came with the Rock Auto kit (to match the new chains). I’m skeptical this has anything to do with the rattle but it is possible there might be enough wear in the old sprockets that the new chain is not seating properly. It does pose a bit of a issue with the Right hand cam chain as the sprockets are part of the cam, so for this set I’m thinking I should match with the old chain.

The only other thing I tripped over is the a slight difference between the 1st Timing chain guides (#1 and #2) They are fastened in place using shoulder bolts that I believe are intended to not clamp down hard on the plastic of the guide? The Rock Auto guides appear fit quite loose compared to the original. Not sure how loose these guides are supposed to be but again I’m skeptical that they could generate the kind of noise that appeared to be coming from the timing chain covers.

Any advice would be appreciated....

Cheers

Martin

 

I don't have much to add Martin, but are you SURE that you aren't hearing a cat converter heat shield rattle at that RPM?

Or are you convinced (stethoscope'd the valve train area?) that the noise is up front engine related? :huh:

 

Oh yah.... I seriously climbed all over the Y pipe and checked every clamp, poked, prodded, clamped. Yes, It does have that mechanical sound that is similar to loose shields. With the stethoscope it does sound like it radiating from a mechanical noise near the front, a combination of two noises (both chain...like?) top of the cam boxes. You can imagine if a noise is created by the main chain it connects to a cam drive line that helps transmit the noise to the back.

At first I thought the source was something mettle loose and rattling in frequency to the engine when warm.... but found nothing. The stethoscope seemed to prove the noise was internal.

The noise/hot, no noise/cold, really points to loose parts in the exhaust system and not something to do with sprocket chain combinations but internal seems to be where the noise is coming from.

BTW, additional information....

-Passenger side cam journals are not perfect but in pretty good condition (for 235,000 kms).
-Cam followers all looked pretty good
-During the repair the Oil pump chain was found to be pretty loose , replaced guide and adjusted.

I do have one question,

The passenger side tensioner (under the passenger side cams). When the original was removed it had moved to the "top" of its stroke, when I tried to depress the follower (manual says to check it for smooth movement) it appeared locked. I assumed there was some sort of check valve in the body of this adjuster? When I removed the new adjuster it moved freely (as the manual indicates it should). Can anybody tell me if there is a check valve in this assembly or is it intended to work entirely from pressure in the oil gallery?

Thanks

Martin

 

Max,

I have completely re+re the entire timing chain system and found nothing wrong.

There is one idea I have but I'm almost afraid that I might sound foolish.... ah heck I how about this possibility:

Oil Pump?

Do you (or anybody) have any idea what a failing Oil Pump sounds like?

I can't be a 100% sure the noise is new, It may have suddenly become pronounced after I re-set the the guide and tension (the chain was "loose" when I replaced the timing chain).

If the pump is getting ready to explode, it might resonate allot of mechanical noise directly up through the block? Still can't explain why it only becomes noisy when warm but this rattle has me stumped.

Thanks

Martin

 

I guess it's possible, but the only oil pump related failures I've seen are with worn internals (loss of pressure building capabilities) or DRIVE failure, such as in snapped chains or input shafts resulting in zero oil pressure. Chain whip too, but you adjusted for that already.

How about...have you disconnected the accessory drive belts and ran it momentarily to rule out the rotating power steering pump, alt, water pump and idler (to include A/C) pulleys? :huh:

 

Glad I'm not "thick" I did remove both belts... same. Again rattle crops up at 2400-2500 rpm when hot. I would not necessarily say the noise is going away above 2500, it just appears to "smooth out".

I guess the only way I'm going to find out is to "look". Pull the pan (PITA).... geeesh I should have been a mechanic!

I'm going to toss in some more clues that make me consider that it could be a failing oil pump.

-I occasionally noted noisy lifters
-Very little wear in any of the timing chain hardware
-loose oil pump chain (wish I had taken the time to reach in and "feel" the oil pump drive)

Before I pull the pan I'm going to see if I can get a oil pressure check (Hate the idiot lamp system used by Suzuki) I wonder if I can get a live read with the code reader? .... I should have enough metric to std fittings to hook up a live read see what the pump is doing.

Thanks

Martin

 

Is the noise so apparent that it warrants going in deeper?

Can you hear it inside the cabin w/the doors closed? (just trying to get some perspective here).

I occasionally noted noisy lifters

Similar to what you are hearing now or not?


This is a stretch...can you run the engine briefly w/o the timing cover on to observe / listen? An oil slinging mess at a minimum, huh.

 

Is the noise so apparent that it warrants going in deeper?

Can you hear it inside the cabin w/the doors closed? (just trying to get some perspective here).

More the type of noise that gives me concern, harsh, mechanical. And yes it can be heard while driving. Lifters have been good since the TC job. Still with the system Suzuki uses for pressure indication I have no idea what is going on with the performance of the pump.

No way I'm going to run that sucker without the covers!

Martin

 

Well.... its getting interesting.

I performed an Oil pressure check. Cold start, (1500 rpm?) shot up to 75psi, after it got warm, at idle it would drop to 45 psi. Doing a run up to test spec..... freaking 90+psi.... mission control, "I think we have a problem"?

According to the book, the relief spec should be 61psi and a max run spec (at 4000 rpm) should be 66psi. Obviously, the Oil pumps relieve valve is stuck, allowing the pump to over pressure. Secondly, there may be something in the works down stream of the "test point"? I even through in a new filter of a different brand and type to see if the filter was gummed up. Thing is, even with a totally blocked oil distribution system, the main delivery gallery where the pressure switch resides SHOULD not exceed 66psi.

I was very careful during both timing chain installs. I can't believe I let anything into the pan. Besides the pump has a pickup screen (I believe) and nothing of any size should have made its way into the pump.

I'm going to assume, 90+psi is a bad thing? ..... And will have to pull the pump and inspect.

While I don't believe in coincidence, it is possible the pump was/is getting ready to fail, If anybody has any advice.... step right up, its entertaining.

Cheers

Martin

 

The oil pressure regulation DOES sound wacky. What oil viscosity? :huh: Should be 5W-30.
IF thicker (like 20w-50 ish) pressures will escalate.

Is the engine otherwise rather gummed up / dirty inside from what you can observe?

How many miles on it?

Yeah, there's a pickup screen on the pump suction side.

 

Max,

Yes, 5-30
(but IMO, any excess oil should pressure should relief and remain close to spec.... )

Very clean

237,000km's, but 225,000 with a previous owner.

I speculate something has come come apart, ingested, or? and has fouled the relief port and or relief plunger.

Martin

 

Max,

Boy I'm really getting good at taking this thing apart !.... Of course to remove the oil pump chain, I pretty much have to go as far as the main chain removal top side (that's done) and now I have to pull the the Diff Assm and lower the steering rack (this will be a first for me). I'm hoping that I can just lower the rack without having to pop off the tie rod ends.

Here is a thought about a stuck relief valve in the oil pump, I'm thinking that very high pressure in the tension mechanism could very well lead to drive train noise?.... just a thought.... right now I'm waiting and hoping Japan Engine got my Oil pump shipped so I can continue this soap opera on the weekend.

Cheers

Martin

 

I'm thinking that very high pressure in the tension mechanism could very well lead to drive train noise?.

As in valve / chain drive train, huh.

I don't know. MAYBE a slight and deep droning / knock sound, but not a clickity-clack is my guess (unless there was chain slap, metal to metal contact).

Just supposition at this point.

I think that just lowering the front axle assy WILL provide you w/the necessary pan clearance.

 

Long post!...

Update….

I tackled the oil pump, a very interesting little project. It’s a deep task but not that difficult. Of course, to accomplish the task you pretty much have repeat most of the timing chain job to get the front timing chain cover off (including the main timing chain if you are going to replace the oil pump chain).

Pulling the front axle housing, again pretty straight forward if you follow the manual. One hiccup was the removal of the right hand CV. While the manual tells you to use two screwdrivers to pry it out of the Diff, perhaps this works on some diff’s but just like my previous experience with the seal replacement this is a PITA!....

I decided to give up on the screw driver BS and made a special tool to extract this little bugger. (I might try and post a photo later, it more or less looks like a ball joint “fork” made out of 3/8” plate. This simple tool made the task a piece of cake!.... all without damaging the dust seal). Also the dropping the diff out is a bit of a twisting turning event but eventually its on the ground.

The 2 piece pan was easy. Digging into the pan revealed nothing on the pickup screen, relatively clean, no mettle no bad news. I pulled out the oil pump for inspection and found that the sprocket on the pump was worn but still acceptable. Chain had some wear but the drive sprocket looked as good as new. Inside the pump, there was evidence of end wear (between the housing and pump gears) but nothing I have not seen before. The relief valve piston boar was scored, not enough to be a real problem but glad I decided to replace it. (Japan engines, $90 for what looks like a pretty good quality part).

Max, you indicated you were able to do this job by not removing the front steering rack? Well I never did accomplish solving the “Rubics Cube” …. But I there was no way I could figure out how I was going to get the upper oil pan back in place without spreading sealant all over the place! After multiple dry runs, I gave up, pulled the steering rack mounts, popped both tie rod ends, removed the rubber mounts and was able to drop the position of the rack down and forward enough to accomplish the task. Not necessary to remove the rack but I would not tackle the job again without first moving the rack. Getting the pickup bolted back on without destroying the sealant bead was also challenge… probably allot easier if up on a hoist.

Some tips that I think works a little better for removal and installation of the front axle is to use webbing style straps to cradle the housing (if your doing this solo). With a pair of straps you can cradle the assembly in a way that all the necessary angles need to guide the part back into position. (plus a floor jack for some key lifts).

Back through the entire timing chain project… geeesssh, I’m getting very good at this

Well…. Now for the bad news.

Started her up, nice and smooth no noise!.... until we got up to temp, and you guessed it. The rattle was back. Again, precisely 2500 rpm, loud metallic rattle (exactly as before) Oil pump test was also an eye opener. Using the test point described in the manual, cold start pressure slightly more then before. Idle 70psi, ramps up to well over 90psi above 2500 rpm. I’m convinced this is “normal” and the specifications in the manual are minimums. I would be interested to see tests from other H27 owners. There is not much in the way information on what is down stream from the pump but if the relief valve must kick out at a higher setting then the manual indicates (or is used to modulate hot oil/ idle rpm to maximize the low point pressure). The relieve valve is dirt simple, over pressure is ported back to the intake of the pump (vacuum side), the “loop” is internal to the pump and there is no way an obstruction downstream could have any effect. …. that's the way I see it.

I’ve tried a few more ideas in search of a cure to the rattle.

-evaluated timing, using the live data, confirmed at 12-14 BTDC at idle
-Compression test, 205-212 psi (assessing if there was any valve damage)
-new plugs, gapped to 42
-rechecked all the tin-work but nothing has proven to be the source of my aggravation

Eventually I’m going to figure this out?

Given the specific RPM and only at temperature I’m pretty sure this rattle is not internal and not mechanical. I’m leaning toward a possible exhaust related source, hidden or missed heat shield or cracked exhaust manifold.
Another possibility, EGR valve rattle? Does anybody know anything about the specifics of how and when the EGR is supposed to operate? Is there a possibility I’m getting a rattle from the valve (sound carried over the entire intake plenum?). What about the knock sensor? ….

Ideas are welcome.

Cheers

Martin

 

Oil pump test was also an eye opener. Using the test point described in the manual, cold start pressure slightly more then before. Idle 70psi, ramps up to well over 90psi above 2500 rpm. I’m convinced this is “normal” and the specifications in the manual are minimums. I would be interested to see tests from other H27 owners. There is not much in the way information on what is down stream from the pump but if the relief valve must kick out at a higher setting then the manual indicates (or is used to modulate hot oil/ idle rpm to maximize the low point pressure). The relieve valve is dirt simple, over pressure is ported back to the intake of the pump (vacuum side), the “loop” is internal to the pump and there is no way an obstruction downstream could have any effect. …. that's the way I see it.

Ideas are welcome.

Cheers

Martin

I'm going from memory here - I'm away from home and don't have access to my manuals - Suzuki provides only one specification for oil pressure tests - engine up to operating temperature and minimum/maximum numbers at a specific rpm - I have seen them use either 3000 or 4000 rpm on different engines - they provide no cold oil pressure numbers, although they do provide relief valve opening details.

I'm not disagreeing with you - in fact - the numbers you mention compare very closely to what I see using 10w40 oil in my 2.0 litre engine. Once that engine is warm, the oil pressure is within the range specified by Suzuki, so I have simply been ignoring the higher pressures I see with the engine cold.

All of my vehicles are equipped with dash mount oil pressure gauges, and when I fitted the gauge to the GV and saw the oil pressure at startup, my initial reaction was that the gauge was defective, and so I removed it and checked it against two older gauges using compressed air, and all three gauges indicated similar readings.

As regards the effects of downstream obstructions - even though the pressure relief valve is on the pump - any obstruction downstream from the pump, if it restricts the flow sufficiently will allow the pressure to climb to the point where the valve opens.

If your filter clogs and the bypass valve does not open, the pressure relief valve will dump the excess pressure and your oil pressure light (which is after the filter) will illuminate, drawing your attention to the problem.

 

Wow Bud. You've been through the ringer.

Your thinking outside the engine again! :huh: You SHOULD be able to narrow inside or outside with a stethoscope, no? Sounds like you are starting from square1.

What about piston slap? Con or main bearing noise?

Just to reaffirm...NOT a knock, but a clicking / tapping that you are hearing, correct?

 

What about piston slap? Con or main bearing noise?

Just to reaffirm...NOT a knock, but a clicking / tapping that you are hearing, correct?

Con or main?.... IMO, nope. Con and main would not be so temperature and rpm specific.

And, No.... its not a knock or slap and Yes it's more of a click or tap. A little along the lines of a loose set of tappets on a valve train that does not use hydraulic lifters.

Do you think there is any possibility the EGR system could be causing a flutter in the EGR valve at temp and specifically at 2500 rpm? I might try and pull off the control connector while looking for the noise.

I don't see this has been much of a "going through the ringer" as its not been $ Costly.. just time consuming. Performance wise, the engine is running well..... Perhaps I dig up a second pair of ears to give a second opinion....

Cheers

Martin

 

Do you think there is any possibility the EGR system could be causing a flutter in the EGR valve at temp and specifically at 2500 rpm?

I guess it's possible, but you could definitely stethoscope THAT distinctive area / noise out.

Con and main would not be so temperature and rpm specific.

True to a point, but when those components "size out" with heat AND the oil thins...sometimes noise erupts. Not ticking though, so that's good news.

Not sure what a broke set of rings would sound like. That would show in a leak-down or compression test too, in all likelihood.

 

The pressure switch is a 1/8" BSPT fitting - different taper and I think 1 thread per inch less than the 1/8 NPT that the gauges come with.

Curiously enough - and I suspect it's because of the difference in taper - you can quite easily screw a 1/8 BSPT male fitting into a 1/8 NPT hole, but not vice versa.

 

In search of the infamous rattle...

OK, I dragged out the stethoscope (again). I crawled all over the engine, I can offer this advice, don't let the stethoscope touch the moving fan while it's in your ears

Again, hot engine, rattle at 2500 rpm (really amazed at how it kicks in when it is hot). My search turned up a hot spot of noise in tune with the overall sound coming off the engine. Location: the Alternator bracket. I searched for the noise without the belts on so in this case the noise was not being created by any of the belt driven accessories. The way I figure it, the closest mechanical device that can kick out noise on that side of the engine... is the number one chain tensioner.

My understanding of this tensioner history is it would fail because of a failed latch and the bore of piston would leak.

I'm skeptical, but based on where the sound is coming from I may very well have a faulty "new" tensioner. This sucks...

A bad noise sourced on this section of cam chain could transmit up through the whole cam system, probably why I can't isolate exactly where its coming from.

Now the question is, do I go in and replace the tensioner (with a Suzuki sourced part)?

Martin

 

do I go in and replace the tensioner (with a Suzuki sourced part)?

I think I would!

ENGINE / CAMSHAFT & TIMING / CAMSHAFT & TIMING / TENSIONER
TENSIONER Grand Vitara, XL-7; Primary 2.5L, 2.7L

Online Price $83.97

Suzuki Parts | OEM Suzuki Parts | Genuine Suzuki Parts

 

I think I would! [/url]

Well, Max thanks for the offer, come on up to Canada and give me a hand! I could show off how fast I've got this job down to ..... when I finally solve this little fiasco I think I'm going to post a thread on after market timing chain kits....

Speaking of parts, Up here in Canada on the West Coast, the Suzuki dealerships have become a joke. Nothing on the shelf, Takes a minimum of 3-6 days to get an order unless you demand Next day is from Toronto (you pay through the nose for the service)... to say nothing of the pathetic dumb looks that go with every order. A good example was the circlip used on the CV joints in the front diff... three local dealers none on the self. Very sad.

I'm trying to figure out how such a simple part could be defective, let alone cause the type noise that I'm assuming is the source. Would the rattle be caused by the piston being weak/leaking and the guide bouncing back and forth on the latch of the tensioner? (I figure this movement is about 5-8mm).

Martin

 

Would the rattle be caused by the piston being weak/leaking and the guide bouncing back and forth on the latch of the tensioner? (I figure this movement is about 5-8mm).

That, or the tensioner not staying locked in the protruded position (which I guess is what you are saying anyways, huh.)

 

If you're still looking outside the engine, there is a bracket that holds the exhaust manifold bolted to the bell housing..
They often crack and the noise can travel and sounds like what you describe sometimes.
Just a thought..

 

Larry,

Thanks for the "thought", Nope, , I know the bracket your talking about and yes I found it cracked and I repaired it back when I did the clutch (last year).

I should pass on a rather sad comment regarding Suzuki Parts in Canada. I ordered the part from my local dealer... of course the part would have to come from Toronto, except... no stock in Canada... will have to come up from the US. Won't be till next week before it will show up at the dealer. This is a common part, extends through a very long line of applications and years.. hard to believe they can't support the product.

It will be next week before I dig back into this project.

Cheers

Martin

 

The weather has turned pretty nasty around here so working in an open carport is out of the question, so quest for the "rattle" is on hold. I dug back into the forum and found this:

http://www.suzuki-forums.com/1g-2001-2006-xl-7/41460-2001-grand-virtara-xl7-timing-chain.html

It was nice to "hear" that tracking down noises on our little V-6's is not the easiest of tasks. The thread makes for an interesting read... sadly, no connection to my "rattle"

Cheers

Martin

 

im thinking about having our local mechanic to dive in on the timing chain issue. I might by the whole kit on ebay for under 200 bucks. (chain, tensioners, guides). If I can everything installed for under 1000 bucks Ill be happy. I want my xl-7 to last a very long time.

 

Success!... after another trip into timing cover, I replaced the number one tensioner, said a prayer and buttoned it up for a test. Out for a good drive, right up to temp and the noise is gone.

So.... what was wrong with the first “new” tensioner?

I purchased a complete kit from Rock Auto:

More Information for DNJ ENGINE COMPONENTS TK523

The kit is a DNJ product, I paid $385usd for what appeared to be a good option for a complete kit. On the other hand, after 4 full re+re’s of the timing chain cover (including the replacement of an oil pump) I must say overlooking a faulty “new” part was my biggest mistake. For reference, here is a photo of the two components side by side (DNJ on the left and Suzuki on the right).

My observations on the two parts, the DNJ “latch” was poorly fitted and not nearly as precisely fitted as the Suzuki latch. The DNJ tensioner casting is much more porous and I noted flaws in the engine side facing. The piston not near as smooth in operation and the rack portion of the piston not nearly as accurate as the genuine Suzuki part. One other interesting observation, the oil port size on the DNJ part appeared smaller then the Suzuki oil port. The small port size suggests perhaps the aftermarket jobber is using the old casting specs and much lower tolerance standards. This is for sure, this is a sub standard part cost me plenty of grief, If I was some poor smuck that was at the mercy of a mechanic that did not know his way around this sort of engine I could very well be into a repair that would easily have run into thousands of dollars.

I’m not going to bother trying to get anything out of DNJ or Rock Auto because my bet is they would just replace the faulty part with the same aftermarket part with the same questionable reliability. Also, I’m not really blaming DNJ or Rock Auto for the bad part. In my years of turning wrenches I seldom get snafued by a faulty aftermarket part. Modern day Jobber parts are built to some pretty good standards and big parts distributors don’t like getting screwed by their suppliers so mistakes are rare (IMO).

My objective starting this project was to be “pro-active” with my maintenance. IMO, if your between 200 and 300km’s on a well maintained 2.5 or 2.7 Suzuki V6, you should do this repair. More so, if you experience any raspy / rattling start-ups. (or as in my case, not the original owner and simply did not want to take a chance on valve train failure). Lets face facts, if you drop a chain or swallow anything in the timing system on these engines, your toast. Valves will be turning your engine into junk in just a few revolutions. BTW, in my case I regularly experienced a rattle on startup so I had one more good reason to “look”.

The trouble I see is not really the repair, its what your going to do with your choice of parts? Here is the range of parts (North America) for a “complete kit”. (not including intake gaskets, sealant, antifreeze, oil, filter….)

-Japan Engines, $170
Japan Engines

-Rock Auto / DNJ $385
More Information for DNJ ENGINE COMPONENTS TK523

-Suzuki (complete kit matching part for part in the previous kits) $1215

I’m not sure the expression “you get what you pay for” is appropriate. Unless the Suzuki parts are gold plated, I doubt it justifies the additional $800! Yet…. I used a jobber kit and paid for it in stress and labor! For the record, I used an oil pump from Japan engines ($90) compared to Suzuki’s $290… to my eye, the Japan Engine part was well made and was a perfect fit…. So, again, I’m not sure you get what you pay for?

This would be my advice to anybody who is going to tackle this job:
If your engine is well maintained and you can afford down time, pull everything down for inspection. If after inspection, everything looks to be wearing well and I would go ahead with ordering a basic genuine list of timing chain parts:
-#1 tensioner, #1 Chain, 3 guides associated with this chain
-RH tensioner and guide
-LH tensioner and guides
(Your choice of jobber or genuine Suzuki seals gasket and valve cover kit)
With a online Suzuki discount, this kit is going to set you back arround $500 to $600

Now…. If you open it up and you find the valve train is in poor condition, lots of wear on everything (including sprockets) , I would purchase a jobber kit, carefully inspect the components to hopefully avoiding a dud part and hope for success. Your choices from that point on will be to run the vehicle and hope it lasts (accepting your fate) or ….. sell it and run?

I want to make a point here, A timing chain system that is worn out is a good reflection on the internals of the engine, bad sprockets indicate poor maintenance and chances are there is evil lurking in there someplace.
This little project has been a challenge. I’ve gained mountains of experience on how to work on the H25 and H27. Owners who are confident with automotive repairs should not be afraid to dig in an get dirty, these little v6’s are not that hard to work on. My only caveat… follow the shop manual, be prepared to take your time, torque to spec… just when you think you can cut a corner, Don’t!... chances are it will just cost you more time then if you followed the instructions. OH….. One more thing…. There is one good thing the average owner can do to treat their Suzuki well…. CHANGE YOUR OIL! I don’t care what you chose (synthetic or regular) but follow the specs and make sure you change it frequently. Personally if your running a regular oil 5-30, 5000km’s between changes. Synthetic, 8000km’s between changes…. I figure with this sort of maintenance, a H series engine is quite capable of reaching 500,000km’s…. IMO.

Cheers and Good Luck!

Martin

 

-Japan Engines, $170
Japan Engines

-Rock Auto / DNJ $385
More Information for DNJ ENGINE COMPONENTS TK523

-Suzuki (complete kit matching part for part in the previous kits) $1215



Martin

Hi everybody

I've been following this rattle issue for quite some time (2.5L V6 2005 GV) and I'd like to get an original suzuki timing kit . I'm from South America (Venezuela), could you point out some americans dealers for this full timing kit? I'd like to pay it with an online transfer and send the package to a Forwarder company in Miami.

Any help on this subjetc would be appreciated!

 

Nice post and I'm glad that you finally got it sorted out.

I see what you mean. Looking at the comparison pics, the OE latch cut out is precise in width compared to the other. A good indication indeed of the overall quality of the after market tensioner.

 

timing chain service interval

Hi,
I am brand new to the forum, my first post. I have been thinking about my timing chain and when I should change it. Your thread is very informative to say the least, but it is very well written. I'm glad you finally got to the bottom of your problem. What is the recommended service interval for the timing chain? I have almost 94k miles on my 04' Xl-7 and I have the 2.7 liter engine.

Bill
Newport News, VA