[corvette98]

Part that broke the teeth

The part that broke those teeth is that guide above the upper timing chain, when I tore it down I could see it wedged in between part of the chain and intake spocket, that peice I found and think I got the whole piece, even though its destorted a bit! I did drain the oil and felt around in the bottom of the oil drain pan and didnt feel any pieces anything, I was thinking that I could try to flush the engine oil pan with a squirt bottle with some diesel fuel, since there is that little space in front of the pan, just leave the oil drain plug off for a day or 2. Does anyone think thats a dumb idea?

 

[Max]

I feel better now that you determined (maybe I missed it earlier) what took out the teeth.

Flushing the pan out as you described won't hurt. If fact, I'd take it a step further and once you run the engine, change out the oil early, like after a couple hundred miles, to hopefully remove any stay behind debris.

 

[aquanaut20]

My guess is, chain broke, wrapped around the guide, tearing it off and drawing the guide into the sproket.

Yes, a good flush while it is open (diesel in a garden pressure sprayer, with small orifices off) then a good dino oil, dump oil & filter cple 100mls..

 

[billsmartis]

Timing chain broke at high RPM's and jamed gears by wrapping around them hence things in motion want to stay in motion which sheared teeth on cam sprockets. There's no clearence between chain and gears once the chain doubles up on the gears which only leaves the teeth to shear off thus stopping the cams or with enough force shear all teeth off of cam gears. This is exactly what happened to my wifes.

 

[lumpylarry]

IMO what usually happens is the chain stetches and starts slapping the guide.
the guide finally gives out and gets jammed in the works.
just like what happened to this guy.. but he got lucky and caught it before it was too late..
http://www.suzuki-forums.com/suzuki...uzuki-vitara-grand-vitara-xl-7/37542-broken-timing-chain-guide-2001-vitara.html

 

[corvette98]

Thanks for all the great advice from everyone!! Everyone has been very helpful!! I got ready to do the Leak Down Test, I got all the pistons at the same height in the cylinders and hooked to #1 spark plug hole! went to plug air hose into the air compressor and my female coupler doesnt seat properly and leaks air so no way to even proceed with test, I will have to go to hardware store and get a new coupler! Will resume tomorrow night after work! I will post my results! Hopefully I'm ordering parts on thursday and not pulling the head instead!! Thanks Again Everyone!!!!

 

[aquanaut20]

I got all the pistons at the same height in the cylinders and hooked to #1 spark plug hole!

With the pistons midway, MAKE SURE YOU LOCK THE CRANK, OR IT WILL STEAM ENGINE (ROLL OVER WHEN PRESSURE APPLIED)

 

[corvette98]

I'm performing the Leak Down Test and not sure if Im doing it correctly, Im pretty sure all pistons are all at the same hieght, Ive tried all four cylinders with the valves closed and all 4 have a hissing sound that seems to be coming from the other cylinder plug holes? (I have all 4 spark plugs removed at the time of test) Do I need the spark plugs installed on the other 3 cylinders Im not testing?? I did try opening a valve during the air test and can hear the sound coming out the exhaust or intake and its clear and unmistakable the sound but thats not the sound it makes when I close the valve again. With the valves all closed on the cylinder Im testing I dont hear sounds coming out either the intake manifold or the exhaust manifold, just out the other spark plug holes! What am I doing wrong? Thanks Rich

 

[aquanaut20]

The valves must be closed on the cylinder you are testing, what you hear may be ring blow by, but that should not be much (<5%). No, you do not require the plugs to be installed. What pressure are you applying and if you have a gauges what is the differential.

What happens when you remover the oil fill cap??

If the valves are bent you will hear air hissing in the intake or exhaust.

 

[corvette98]

Philip, Thats what is kinda sounds like, is leaking past the rings, I start with low pressure probably 40-50 psi and then the more I turn up the more air that seems to come out the spark plug holes, enough to move the dust out of the the spark plug holes. but i dont really hear hissing out of the right or left sides just in the spark plug holes! It sounds about the same in every hole. Its kinda strange cause I hope I would be able to hear a distinct hiss from the intake or exhaust and I dont. Thanks Rich

 

[corvette98]

Philip, I ran the test again same as before, 1 and 2 and 4 are all the same and hold pressure with minimal hiss and cylinder 3 is not like the rest, on 3 you can really hear alot of air coming out of the plug holes and in drains the air supply in my air tank, I can test the other three cylinders and can keep the tank pretty full but cylinder #3 drain air compressor tank about as fast as holding exhaust valve open, Its wierd cause you hear the majority of the air thru the spark plug holes, you can feel it with your hand come out there when you put the air to it. could the ring gaps all be lined up on #3? very doubtful, im leaning toward a bent valve myself! cause its different than the other cylinders. It has to be a bent valve on #3 but im not sure?? Thanks Rich

 

[corvette98]

If it turns out to be a bad valve on #3 cylinder, If I take off the head is that something I can fix myself by replacing the bad valve or valves or do I have to take the head to a machine shop and any ideas what this repair might cost if someone else has run into this! Thanks, Rich

 

[corvette98]

Philip, One more strange thing I noticed just now, I was looking a little closer on the intake valves and exhaust valves, on the intake side, the cam shaft clearance to the tappet is alot looser to the rest of the cam shaft clearences?? I can take a razor blade and pass it between cam and lifter! 2nd thing I noticed about the 2 intake valves on #3 is that tappet cup {lifter cup} is, that you can take your finger and push it down fairly easily, the rest of the lifters are alot tuffer to push them down with your finger! could I have bad lifter on the intake side on #3 or does this lend more proof to a bent intake valve? What do you think? Thanks

 

[corvette98]

Philip, One last note on the Leak Test on #3, which Im going to redo tomorrow after work, When I put the air to it with exhaust valve wide open it made a different sound ( I heard a definite leak or hiss into the exhaust manifold) than when exhaust valves where in the closed position. I'm going to try the same experiment with the intake valves on #3open and see if the noise changes and the air coming out of the spark plug holes is more or less with the intake valves open or closed! Thanks for your help!

 

[aquanaut20]

If you hear air leaking into the manifold (valves closed) it indicates bent or damaged valve, Head must come off.....perform tests a second time (wet, tsp of oil to seal rings).

The loose valves might be indicative of a collapsed or broken valve spring.

When you take the head off, check with a machinists rule for trueness. If the head is warped, make sure it is relaxed before it is shaved.

I would recommend having the head reworked at a good machine shop, valves ground, seats re-cut, new valve guides, springs measured/tested.

Before you have the head redone, check the pistons for strike damage....

I must reiterate that the differential leak down with good valves/rings must be (<5%), so if the feed pressure is 80psi, cylinder pressure must be about or >75psi, any less indicates poor engine condition, requiring further investigation...

 

[Max]

You simply can't conduct a proper test until you sort out the air line adapter leaks.

Once corrected, distinguishing air past valves will be audibly obvious as to whether intake or exhaust side too.

 

[corvette98]

I just got done doing the last leak test on #3 cylinder, with both intake and exhaust valve in the closed position all the air in coming out of the #1 and #2 spark plug holes and thats all I can hear! As soon as I open the intake valve it stops blowing the air out of #1 and #2 and it all come out the intake and you can smell a fuel smell in the air so I know its coming out the intake and as soon as I close the intake valves it then goes back to the two cylinder spark plug holes and I dont hear it in the intake anymore. Same way on the exhaust side! Not sure what exactly that means? Motor has 70,000 miles on it! What you guys think?? Thanks Rich

 

[aquanaut20]

I just got done doing the last leak test on #3 cylinder, with both intake and exhaust valve in the closed position all the air in coming out of the #1 and #2 spark plug holes and thats all I can hear! As soon as I open the intake valve it stops blowing the air out of #1 and #2 and it all come out the intake and you can smell a fuel smell in the air so I know its coming out the intake and as soon as I close the intake valves it then goes back to the two cylinder spark plug holes and I dont hear it in the intake anymore. Same way on the exhaust side! Not sure what exactly that means? Motor has 70,000 miles on it! What you guys think?? Thanks Rich

Rick,
At this stage of the game I am not concerned with the flow when you open the valves, I indicated a couple of tests, these tests are to spec how much air is bypassing the rings, or damaged piston top.

• test with the oil filler cap off.
• test wet cylinder (tsp oil)
• what pressure are you running these tests at?
• if you have a proper leak down device, what are the differential pressures?

Philip....