- Where and how would I ask the community how many owners have had this issue.

You just did.


I've dealt with broken fastener issues many times on various engines in the past.

One must machine the broken stud (precisely) on center to the appropriate tap-drill diameter and depth, then "chase" the threads with a tap.

The time consuming catch is if this can be done IN PLACE or whether the head must be removed to gain the machining / tool access required.

Forget "easy-outs". Since the stud is held in place with such determination to initially snap in half, the force required to remove the remaining stud portion exceeds the strength of an easy-out. You will end up snapping the tool off and be in WORSE shape at that point.

 

Ok, I just want to be clear on this, before digging in to the fix.

This is where it was (Both #1 Studs & Nuts) missing when I pulled the heat shield off?

Are these systems known to have this issue?

And if not.

Someone would have likely attempted to either remove or re torque them for some reason?
Since I didn’t,
(The dealership is the only other set of tools on this vehicle)

Just trying to make sense of the issue. These are the first 2 Nuts to be removed for Disassembly?

So, any thoughts or known issues on this?

----- -----

Trying to get this information as quickly as possible,

Since I need to order parts now (nothing readily available for these). Outside KIA Dealership$$$

Replace all studs and nuts X 10
Which Gasket is best for this application. Felpro or Victor Reinz
Catalytic Flange Gasket(s), Only have Felpro or ROL to choose from?

 

You made the statement (or is it a question?)...

Both #1 studs are broke off below flush?

SOMEBODY has been in there and rang them off. Dealer? An independent Mechanic? Previous owner? Who knows. But there isn't an engine self cause that would do that, with the remote exception of loosening and falling out IN THEIR ENTIRETY.

Tell us. What caused you to even want to remove the heat shield only to discover this? Manifold exhaust leakage / sound maybe? :huh: In other words, if no leakage symptoms, can you just leave well enough alone?

 

Yes,
I heard the ticking noise while it was cold (during warm-up) and it subsided at first.

Seemed it was lasting longer as time progressed.

Now blow-by can be heard under load so.

Pulled the Shield and SURPRISE!

Off to the races...

 

What are the Specs. on the exhaust studs?

I know their M10x1.25-????

I'm guessing without removing one but I think it's, M10x1.25- 16-20...

Theres two thread lengths on studs? Head side I'm thinking 16, Manifold side, 20, 30 seems kinda long or no?

 

Also,
On the stud removal procedure.
Your personal/professional experience(s) and opinion(s) are then....
I Have owned this car since Jan-05, purchased new w/3mi. on the clock.
No one but SUZUKI and I have put a tool on it.
This was the first time I removed the heat shield.

As I have no idea why the manifold was ever looked at by the SUZUKI dealership while in under any of the several warranty repairs. (Prior to the Extended Warranty Expiration).
1. Water Pump Shaft Defect (>35k)
2. Valve Cover Leaking. (approx. 25k, 30k, 2x@40k, when they gave up (and my 2x now going on 3)
3. DRL module Harness Splice. Twice on my vehicle?

And,

If the consensus is that some monkey was in there and tried to snug up the exhaust nut for whatever reasons?

Would you spend the time, effort and $ on Reverse/Left Hand Drilling the studs out or just re-drill (I have a complete Incl. #’s Std. R.H. drill set) and clean up threads, or if necessary (ie; screwing it up to the point of), Heli-Coil the studs back to the M10x1.25.

Still got a few of them left from my sons NISSAN engine rebuild. That was a nightmare too.

 

Conventional RH drill, dead-nuts center, IF you have tool clearance.

Right-angle P-grinder w/Carbide burrs, if not.

Either way it's a PITA.

Can't help you on stud ID.

Try and back out the remaining studs (if you dare) they have got to go too!

 

Sorry,
I need to make a revision to my prior statements in replies #6 & #7.

*The studs are M8x1.25 thread pitch.
Still not known is how deep the stud is in the head?
Working on it?

But a new development as I prepared to start disassembly,

Found a broken stud & nut caught in the wire loom at the bottom of the radiator?
Pics.

Now it looks as if they likely failed under normal operating conditions!

If it failed in this manor, due to heat & expansion, they should be easier to remove? OR?

Now it changes my thoughts now to why the gasket failed.
The broken stud shows heat at the break point and appears to ha been stretched not twisted?
At least in my experiences.

Studs got stretched which would indicate a warped exhaust manifold possibly.
Any known troubles with this manifold/exhaust configuration?

 

hi. ok first ive never heard of the stud braking being an issue on the reno/forenza before. yes, on some cars the splice pack needed to be repaired twice by the dealer, one side first then the other.
now just for future reference the studs are m8x1.25. 10mm of thread, 5mm of shank and 20mm of thread the parts are available for sure at Suzuki Car Parts Catalog Online Store but if in a rush im sure you could match them to something.
the valve cover is an issue because the dealers/gm dont know what theyre doing lolol
if you get a small washer to put on each valve cover bolt, use some kind of a gasket maker, torque to speck you should be fine. the motors in Europe all use washers not sure why the American ones dont.
about what gasket you should use, youll get a different answer from people. between those two choices its basically preference i know people who will swear by both.
hers a link to the online service manual. its help you with the tightening orders and torque specs for everything. basically all the info youl need about the car is in it.
Daewoo Service Manual

unless you feel totally comfortable drilling into the head i would let someone else do it. its not something youd really want to mess up. if you dont want to remove the head, take the car into a shop maybe they can do it without removing head. i tried to answer all your questions but might have missed a few, sorry. anything else ask away. let us know what happens

 

for future reference the studs are m8x1.25. 10mm of thread, 5mm of shank and 20mm of thread.

Thank you, 7-even,
That’s exactly what I need right now! Information.

I have to assemble all the required parts prior to the tear down

10mm of thread left in the head, not very deep, so to keep it centered drilling out shouldn’t be to hard.

I got to try the reverse drilling method first, seems to be the most forgiving, if it will break lose?

Otherwise I’ll need to be cleaning some threads up afterwards, if a total drill out is required?

On the disassembly side of this thing.
I thought I was ready to do it a few days ago and realized that time was too short if complications accrued!
“MURPHY’S LAW” I had soaked all the bolts and studs involved with penetrating oil to help anything seized up?
2 straight days averaging a soaking/3-4 hours?

Didn’t do anything, as far as disassembly yet. But I needed to put the car back into service for the week...

Rescheduling it for this weekend (Hopfully).

Have I screwed up here?
Did this complicate the procedure?
I’ve never done it before, so I have no personal experience with this?

Anyone else out there do it before?

 

Oh,
Another question for the PROS. Or at least One with lots of experience with exhaust systems.

I want to replace these studs and nuts with a much higher grade of material?

This can’t happen again!, I don’t do a job twice!

What options do I have here?
This is where I would need/want to upgrade - aftermarket/performance, unfortunately I have not seen ANYTHING! For these cars or engines?

Grade information on the studs is hard to find I know.
Are the all considered to be equal and what grade are they? 5, 8, XX??

Are Stainless Steel studs/nuts available?

I’ve seen where they used Brass Nuts on the steel studs at 3 bolt flanges and such?
Brass is much weaker, strength wise, but being softer & more pliable has an advantage for not breaking/stretching the bolt or stud under some conditions as well as more corrosion resistant I know.

Anyone,

 

rloomis482, im by far a pro but i do do a bunch of research and emails lolol. ok so you can replace the studs with other studs. ARP has a set that should fit and are stainless upgrades. they might be a little longer on the nut end but i think they should work just fine.i just took a look on ebay. they come in a number of different lengths shouldnt be a problem to find something close. heres one of the part numbers ARP Accesory Studs: 400-8022: M8x1.25. if you want to see the different sizes you can go to ebay and just type in ARP m8x1.25. they come in different amounts also, pack of five, pack of ten. probably cost around $100. i think what you should try to figure out is WHY it broke. if theres a problem upgrading the part might not be the fix. did you back up into something and hit the exhaust pipe ect. ect.

 

you said you were having trouble finding aftermarket/performance parts? what kind of parts are you interested in? basically everything is available all the way up to doing a full performance rebuild. theres also suspension upgrades available. it just depends on what your looking to do with the car. keep us updated on your progress.

 

Ok,
Status update,
Here’s where I’m at right now.

On hold waiting for the ARP Studs.
Reasons for the choice of installing the upgraded studs over the much cheaper$ standard O.E. options are as follows;

After I found one of the broken studs, and seeing the evidence of the likely failure, I now believe there may be a problem with the exhaust manifold its self (either the manifold has warped or the machined surface where the flange nut fits is not square) or less likely the studs threading in to the head is not square? I don’t have the tools to positively identify which.

I’ve come to this conclusion due to the evidence that the flange nut shows some wear (See the pictures on the previous post, the shiny area) on about 40 percent of it only. This indicated to me, that the stud was being side loaded (not being pulled on straight). Also there’s evidence that the gasket was leaking prior to the failure with the darkening of the material. After so many heat cycles the stud was weakened and along with the side loading, POP! First one and the other (was on its own out there) and it failed too. As these are the last two in the torque sequence and the two with the least amount of air flow to cool? Maybe? Possibly?

I know the gaskets whether an exhaust, head, or any other with two surfaces that are put together will and are supposed to have the ability to move (as to allow for the materials to expand and contract) that’s the gaskets job.

The amount of the wear I noted on the flange nut seems to show there’s a problem or defect present here.

Well that’s my observation of this situation, and I’m sure someone else will have a different one!!

And that’s why I’m here,

Back to all of you for yours??

 

very interesting. without having the manifold/head surfaces checked im not really sure theres a way to find out if thats what happened. i would think that even with stronger studs the possibility of it happening again is still there. one idea is to run a straight edge along the manifold flange vertically, horizontally, diagonally, kind of a poor mans way of doing it lolol but, it might give you an idea of its straightness/flatness. you could also put the manifold in place and check the flange holes for clearance on the studs. perhaps all it needs is to have one of the holes reamed out a touch for a better fit? theres also the possibility of a faulty stud. two being faulty is a little questionable though lolol one thing to think about is this, the manifold is bolted to the head. this is supposed to be a fairly strong bond. the motor does rock back and forth and so the manifold does as well. to help compensate for the movement and vibration a "flex pipe" is installed just after the exhaust bends under the motor. so does movement/vibration actually come into play with the studs failure? as an example, on my car i have a custom exhaust. the set up goes something like this, header pipe from the motor down to where the front cat would end (around the bottom of the heat shield) then there is a flange and another pipe continues under the oil pan where there is a flex pipe, then under the car a catalytic converter and back to the muffler. one of the flanges between the header pipe and the pipe that runs under the oil pan got warped during instillation. now theres a gap and it doesnt seal correctly. its been like that for years and none of the three bolts that hold it together have ever been a problem. just a thought. let us know what you find out

 

I'll try to take a whack at this, as I recently had 20 hrs of drilling, tapping, punching, re-threading, extraction etc.. then another 10-15 learning damn near everything about fasteners, and exactly how they work.

This is something that is somewhat common with exh. manifold studs, as the potential hundreds of thousands of heat cycles they go through, they become so brittle over time that this is quite natural, and to be almost expected really. It's not a trait of this vehicle in particular, but rather a trait of all vehicles.

Firstly, I'd suggest sticking with stainless steel and not going to another metal. With the constant expanding and contracting that an exhaust system will go through, steel will be the most resilient. And in most situations, you will WANT the bolt/stud to snap flush versus deep. You'll also risk fusing dissimilar metals together and then you'll really be screwed (no pun intended :lol: ). If you go metric get a grade 10.9, if you go SAE get a grade 8. I'd suggest to stick with the metric, as you'll have a hard time finding an SAE that will fit properly w/ out ruining the thread. Also, the threads in this car are mostly UNF, not coarse.

Second, when you speak about stretching, you may not know that bolts/studs/ cap-screws are designed to stretch by nature. Think 'spring loaded' It (the stretching) is the clamping force that provides the 'seal' that one is looking for. No matter what the application. This is called the 'maximum yield point' of the capscrew. The absolute desirable point you want is 70% of the bolts max tensile strength. 71% WILL over stretch it. 100% and your talking pure shattering, aka ultimate strength. This is the reason that cylinder head bolts need to be replaced when extracted. Cylinder head bolts are brought exactly to the max tensile strength, (you know when a manual calls for turning the cyl. hd. bolt that extra number of degrees x amount of times using a torque angle gauge?) and as a result, cannot be reused effectively.

Extracting bolts can be a tricky business, but it eventually happens. If you work on cars, your going to snap a bolt in time.

My advice would be to use a punch to punch as Max put it "dead-nuts center." Then use a thin enough drill bit to put a hole in the very center. You will want the drilled space to be just enough to make the walls of the stud slightly malleable. from there you should be able to use a REAL easy out (not one of those gimmicky EZ Out T.V. commercial ones, use a real one that looks like a oil rig drill) or a fluted extractor.


In a way you got lucky because you have some room to work with, versus having to go in a few mm and extract where you cant see. All you need is to back it out a tiny bit and from there get some vice-grips or needle nose pliers and gently unscrew it from there. Only do this if the drill fails.

I hope I helped, if not at least educated.. a little.

 

Nathan!! some great info. seems like your learning a lot. good for you! id just like to add one thing to your explanation. it wont be as technical unfortunately lolol. the original head bolts in the car are a stretch, one use type lolol very technical. i told you! this means that after one use the bolts will not be able to return to there normal size and strength. theyre stretched. there are other bolts that can be used more than one time like ARP bolts. they are made of a stronger more resilient material and are able to be "stretched" and then can "rebound" to there original size and strength after use. because if this they can be used multiple times safely. i think you need to check them with a gauge to be sure theyre the correct size before reuse. ok thats it for my technical contribution lolol all the info is on ARP'S site if your interested in the info. thanks again Nathan, great info!

 

Ahhh no worries about the technicalities.. I've gotten used to writing long ass papers. At the end of the day its the experience that counts. And I could always use more of that. I didn't know that some bolts could be reused. I heard that ARP is like the master of any nut and bolt, as long as you can find the right size...that's actually pretty useful.. a decent cylinder head bolt set can run 100$ and I don't think they can be reused.. versus ARP is around that price (I think? 160?) and on top of that they can be reused.. very useful!

 

yeah theyre definitely good parts. i have ARP head bolts already and when i do the engine work ill be using ARP rod bolts and mains also.
rloomis482 before you bolt on the exhaust manifold you might want to use a dab of anti seize on the threads to help keep the nuts from seizing up.

 

1/27/2014 2:00 PM

Foremost, a thank you for everyone’s help here at (suzuki-forums.com )

I would really like to get thing back together tonight as my wife is now driving my 10mpg F-150, $$-OUCH!! And I don’t have transportation while she’s gone to work every day.

Status update, and questions or recommendations regarding ARP stud installation...


Here’s where I’m at right now, since I’m short on time and abilities.

No one else here at the homestead to help out at this time,
I should explain that I really can’t keep up with the average joe out there when it comes to auto or any other repairs requiring the physical labor stuff. I am one of the lucky ones that had back surgery with blessings of doctors that all will be rosier afterwards, and am now 7yrs later living on meds and on a good day I can maybe perform about 2-3hrs of productive work, Including setup and cleanup, even sitting here at the comp, does its damage. Not a lot of real ability left in me so patience has been the rule for me.
Enough of my mechanical defects....

Let’s try and work on this thing now, so first of all....

SUCCESS!! I think, (see the pictures)
Reverse (left hand drills really do work), I will give exact details later as I need this time to get it back together ASAP. If that will be ok with you all.


(ARP stud installation procedure)
7-even,
You said you’re familiar with ARP’s studs and hardware,

Please let me know as soon as you can, what should I do if I cleaned out all the stud holes and they still won’t start in more than 1 -1 1/2 turns before the Allen Wrench bends or twists out of shape!
Way too snug for Anti-seize to be any help here?

Not sure if I really want to run a tap through every hole as the one I thought was the cleanest still took a lot of material just in the 2 - 2 ½ threads I tried!

I hope I didn’t screw that one up!
Though the ARP stud seems to start in a lot easier on that one now?

Help....
also, got in a hurry and forgot to thank Nathan for the post as well. Thank you.

 

One other question on the re-assembly of the exhaust system, the factory application seems to only have the Copper O-ring on the back side of the front CAT?

The Felpro replacements have the Aluminum ring for the center and I was explained by the auto parts rep. that there was 2 gaskets required.
The Composition 3-Hole for the Flange as well??

So, which is correct?

O-ring only, or Both due to a difference in the O-ring thickness or something?

If possible Would like to know tonight....
So I can finish this thing, the right way the first time.

Thanks.

 

hi rloomis482th the fitting of the arp bolts doesnt sound right to me. i dont have much experience with them myself. i didnt fit the head bolts into my motor. did you check to see if the threads are the same on the arp and your old bolts? is one thread course and one fine? it sounds like that could possibly be the problem. did you compare the sizes of the two studs? dont try to force the studs in that could mess up the threads inside the head. did you try to reinstall one of the old studs to see how smoothly that installs? did you chase the threads in the head after you removed the broken studs? i believe this is necessary to make sure that the threads inside the head arent damaged in any way. if everything looks to be the same on the ARP studs and your old studs you might need to call ARP and see what they have to say.
about the exhaust im not really sure. i havent had the stock exhaust installed in years so i dont remember what components are needed,sorry. what components where on the exhaust when you removed it? if you dont think you need the extra aluminum gasket dont use one. the worst thing that happens is you need to install it later on. if it wasnt there originally i would think its not necessary. in the past there have been extra gaskets listed for the car that werent needed so thats a possibility. if no one has had it apart before you just put it back the way you found it. in the service manual it shows there is one gasket on each side of the cat.
Daewoo Service Manual

 

Well, burning the midnight oil now!

There’s an additional flat 3 hole flange gasket they list to be in there 2 places at the store. That’s what they use on the GM assemblies he says? Seeing this 2.0L has GM all over it I thought he might be right? But?

I’ll try to get pics to show later. Appears to be right Diameter but???

Well,
Since I can’t figure out how to get the old Ring Seal out/off the CAT Flange?
It just doesn’t feel/look right anyways?

I think since I need this thing tomorrow/today now I’ll deal with the CAT Flange later, if it leaks for a week, so be it.

Exhaust Studs...
Needed to tap the head (resize the stud holes per ARP’s last resort recommendations) in order to fit the new studs. I’ll have to explain later! What a journey this simple exhaust manifold gasket job turned out to be!

Will be back as soon as I’m able,

Thanks again.

 

7-even,
Are you there right now!

Just opened the FELPRO exhaust manifold gasket box.....

IT’S BENT!!!

Can it still be installed or is it junk?????

 

Ok,
This is one of the longest days I’ve had in quite sometime.
Actually the longest 2 1/2 days. I’m definitely not a teenager or even a young adult anymore!
Man I’m tired, soar and just plain wiped out. Gunna take a few days to get back on my regular schedule.

I know it seemed like a simple exhaust manifold gasket, with two studs whacked off. But if it could go wrong it probably will. Murphy’s Law surly found me this time around.

Like I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I will need to elaborate on much of this venture after I get some decent rest, but for now I need to let you all know....

I finished putting the last splash pan up about 7:45am and my wife left to work in it @ 8:50, nothing like testing the job while on the job, literally! At least I was able to make sure there were no initial water leaks on warm up and a few minutes of minimally pressurized cooling system, and it sounded like the exhaust was behaving despite it all.

So here’s the short for now... Murphy first

Ordered wrong ARP studs 400-8021’s 32mm before I seen 7-even’s post. FYI those would also be too short. (I got the 8023’s 45mm and there’s no threads leftover, need 2 get pics up)

Had to remove the Thermostat to access #8 stud (Installation/torque sequence) or #1 Removal sequence.
Figured flush sys, and to replace radiator hoses at least and hoping to replace all water hoses but (no time, this time, later) & fresh coolant while it’s open...

Took me the much better part of Sat, Sun, Mon. to remove the 2 broken studs and clean, clean, clean, resize and clean, tap out to round the holes again to accept ARP’s special items and clean em again. READY!

Then after stores closed up, last night...
Special order 2day out - Bent Manifold gasket (2pls)
Special order 2day out - Exhaust Flange Gasket Set? Set, see 1 ring used and no composition 3 hole between the flanges? Couldn’t figure how to get the dang thing popped out anyways? (Anyone tell me how for the next time)

Expecting them both to fail now, sooner than later.

Also, the upper and lower DAYCO radiator replacement hoses are a far cry from a direct fit!
Cut, fit, cut, fit, cut now sort of fits? If it swells, and we know they do, the lower hose will be rubbing on the bolt for the EGR Block! Not even close to the O.E.

There’s Murphy’s input.

I only needed to separate the system at the back (down stream or bottom) side of the front CAT. To remove the manifold.


So, after cleaning up the existing old exhaust seal and the flanges to try and give as much clamping ability
I slammed it all back together and crossed my fingers it didn’t puke out at either or both gaskets???

Sounded good through the warm up and a few restarts?

Time will tell me when I get to do it all over again?
Except for the manifold studs, unless the two I repaired decide to rip out of the head, then I get to use the heli-coils left over from my sons engine rebuild.

Thanks for the help and information everyone,
I need to try and get some real rest here and get off my back for a while.

Will get back as soon as I can to explain some of these issues with the ARP studs and the rest of this mess.

 

My apologies for taking so long to get back at the posts here,
I’m working on the information details, text, pics and procedures as to hopefully help others that may run in to this issue.

For me, at least, wasn’t a simple stud replacement job.

Thanks for your patience.

 

i had posted but i didnt actually get posted! ill be looking for your writeup. very interested to hear what happened with the bolts.. and yes i think as long as the gasket isnt creased it should be fine. it might be fine even if it is creased the pressure might flatten it out. you can go back and replace it if theres any kind of a problem.