You can't drain the T/C in place.

And yes, fluid of that color is quite ominous, particularly in light of the miles traveled.

Suzuki recommends 100K fluid changes under normal driving conditions. The "screen" replaced only at "overhaul".

Correct, the pan is difficult to remove as you've noticed.

I'd drain what is in the pan via the drain plug. Top it back off with fresh, drive it a week and repeat TWICE. That will renew the majority of the complete fluid charge, to include the T/C.

 

Thanks Max, I appreciate the prompt helpful response. I am glad I did not tangle with the pan earlier this week. We had a nice dry spell here with no snow and wet weather plus it was mild on Tuesday--it was tempting to go the whole route as the vehicle was dry underneath, etc. The weather is back to winter. I will follow your advice on the oil changes...

John R

 

Two comments - first - the 100,000 mile fluid change interval assumes near perfect driving conditions, at the other extreme it becomes a 12,000 mile change interval, and the constant stop, start of city driving does have an impact on fluid life - see your owner's manual & be guided accordingly.

Second - a "pan drain" will only get perhaps one quarter of the fluid in the transmission, so you would have to repeat several times to get the majority of the old dirty fluid out

 

Both of those points have been addressed in "normal" driving conditions / operation and the need to drain and fill the pan three times to replenish the majority of fluid charge. :huh:

 

OK Guys, so I thought I had this tranny situation in hand... After draining 2.5 quarts early last week, and adjusting the cold level with adding new fluid- this is noted: I drive the vehicle several days ago 11 miles to work at 60MPH and park. I pull the stick with the engine running and see no oil on the stick--bone dry!!! This after the level was in the cold range on refill. So I think--and then add 3-4 more ounces. Yesterday at work--still nothing on stick. Checked it this am COLD and the line is at low hot--above where it was at last weeks refill-low cold. Nothing amiss on operation so I am hesitant to add more fluid. The oil is brown and I took this pic of 6 year old fluid from my other vehicle and the Tracker fluid on the right--today. I am just tempted to take it to a tranny shop and have them look at this tranny more than I can? I am used to stories of stick swaps and stuff like that but this appears to be original equipment. I have never heard of fluid shrinking when hot!! Maybe the fluid is hanging up in the tranny somewhere? I know I put back at least 2.4 ounces by now. Very Puzzled.

JR

 

Level checking should be accomplished with the transmission fully warmed, engine running, in "Park" or "Neutral", level surface and after haven been driven to circulate the oil, heat it and purge potential air pockets in the process (in light of the recent draining in particular) for utmost accuracy.

The only place the oil could go is...

1. on the ground

2. into your engine coolant system, via a ruptured trans cooler in the radiator (inspect radiator fill area and recovery tank)

3. on models (other than yours I believe) drawn into the engine via the intake when a transmission is configured with a vacuum modulator valve which has an internal breach (and in turn, significant smoke exiting the tailpipe would be apparent).

Hopefully you just have a level gauging mis-fill / calculation.

 

As a side note...I should also mention that Automotive Repair, "Quick Lube's" and Transmission Shops provide a service called a "Power Flush" to renew the transmission fluid. In goes the new, out comes the old, in simplest terms.

The accomplishment of same HAS met with mixed reviews though. :huh:

The premise is good....to flush the trans, torque converter, cooler, lines and renew the total transmission fluid charge. The naysayers site worse problems after accomplishment in some cases due to the dislodging of previously benign debris which can end up clogging small oil passages.

Personally, I believe the ones that get in "flush" trouble are those with existing transmission issues (hoping for a Hail Mary fix) OR their system has been so neglected or abused (now with brown or burnt fluid and debris laden transmission & cooler internals) that the flushing process is just too late to save the transmission without at least filter screen renewal and fluid change.

Just my $.02.

Another thread on the subject here...
http://www.suzuki-forums.com/1g-199...1g-1999-2005-vitara-grand-vitara/109817-tranny-flush-2004-grand-vitara-2-a.html

 

Max,
Thanks for more input. I see no obvious issues--no leaks etc.. I added a couple more ounces yesterday and drove the car for about 10 miles---nothing amiss; Shifts well as before. The oil remains brown but I will drain it again as soon as we get a break from really cold weather here.

My opinion on this vehicle is-- I was the first owner who likely changed the fluid, although 150,000 miles seems a bit much for original fluid? There is probably a sludge pile at the bottom of the pan which continually gets stirred up with these fluid changes. I will just be patient and remain pleased there have been no tranny issues. Although I bought the fluid and filter last summer and gave them to the mechanic for drain #2. I doubt he removed the pan as I had thought our plan was to be. A clean pan could not continue this dark fluid? The next drain and fill will be #4 inside 15 months and 10,000 miles.

Overall, when I bought the vehicle, the antifreeze was new and so was the engine oil and diff fluids. The tranny and transfer case looked never touched--in fact, the transfer case fill nut was frozen in place and the fluid inside was found low as well.

As far as power flushes go--I'll play it safe and stay with the "Drain and fill." I have read those stories you mention. The other option would be to disconnect the radiator return line and run the engine while adding fluid. Sounds a bit to involved with some risk for screw-up. I have not looked to see if that is possible here.

John R

 

The other option would be to disconnect the radiator return line and run the engine while adding fluid. Sounds a bit to involved with some risk for screw-up. I have not looked to see if that is possible here.

I was tempted to mention this before - it's the procedure recommended by Mitsubishi on their Pajeros (the Pajero has the AW4, which is essentially the same as the 03-72LE used on the GV - I've used GV parts, which are easier to get, on the Pajero).

Here's how they do it ...

Disconnect the cooler return hose and direct it into a bucket, start the engine and let it idle in Park for one minute, or until fluid stops flowing, which ever happens first.

Switch off the engine, drain the pan, replace the pan drain plug and refill with fresh fluid (to the cold full mark).

Start the engine, and idle in Park for one minute, or until the fluid stops flowing, which ever happens first, and then switch off - reconnect the cooler return hose, and refill again.

Start the engine and test drive, when the transmission is at operating temperature, stop, run the selector through all the shift positions - P/R/N/D/2/L and back to Park (this ensures all passages in the valve body have fluid) and then check & top up as required, with the engine idling.

This will allow you to replace 7~8 quarts out of the total of 12~13 that the system holds.

I've done this on my Pajero, I'd say it's a fairly simple process, not a lot that you can get wrong - in fact - the biggest challenge is determining which is the cooler return. I took the hose off the cooler (in the bottom radiator tank), replaced it with a short piece of hose and directed both into the bucket - if the oil flows from the cooler side, you have it right, and the only difference is that when you use the return line, you also flush the cooler itself.

 

Thanks Fordem,

I will look at the vehicle soon to see what's involved. I had another thought as well. I remember looking at the tranny dipstick tubing and noted it is held to the engine block with 2 screws. The screws did not look to be difficult to access. So...I was wondering whether it is worth the effort to drop the pan with the tubing intact while keeping the whole thing steady. Just lower it to the floor after first draining the pan. Then you could at least wipe out the pan and clean it, even if it is sitting right below the tranny?? Might be able to change the filter as well? It seems to me the pan is the key to this problem, as it is likely full of crud which limits how fresh the fluid can be after changing it out. I would not think there are any complications associated with the dip tubing as long as you do not torque it on movement.

JR :mellow:

 

I see the dip stick tubing routed into the side of the drop pan. This prevented me from doing the full job the first time as I did not want to deal with it. Is this something easy to remove/adjust in order to get the pan off?

You'll find that the dipstick tube is a two-piece slip together joint design which is o-ring sealed, allowing for easier pan removal.

But you may also have a frame cross-member or other interference to move / deal with for pan dropping screen access.

 

Sticking my oar in...

maybe it's my advanced age or perhaps the lack of a location to properly do the job... but i just take my vehicle to a mechanic that specialises in automatic transmission fluid replacement.

I had the "remove the radiator hose" method done on a '96 Tracker with good success.

Recently, I had the "suck it out and refill through the dipstick tube" method done on a 2011 Ford Transit Connect - also with good results.

It costs a bit more but I know that I have someone to yell at besides myself if the job gets screwed up.

 

I decided to just "Drain and Fill" again, for now--the fluid was brown again. It seems you could just pull the pan down while disconnecting the tubing section at the joint, which MAX provided the diagram for. The pan has one obstruction on the Tracker--it is the driveshaft on the right side.

I put in DEX III fluid per the book--2.6 quarts and it looks as it should on the stick. I must have been short last time. I drove the vehicle--all transmission ranges, and all checks out. The fluid is pink for now. This is change number 2 in 2 weeks. Walmart sells a gallon, for less of course.

For anyone who wants to know, I find draining this Tranny easier than draining the engine oil--probably likewise on a GV. I used a cut up plastic milk container. Since you are only draining 2.6 quarts, it is easy to partially fill a milk container and not make any mess. One of the easier fluid jobs I have done over the years on many vehicles. It is a good investment for any vehicle with many miles and old fluid. I did not even have to jack up the vehicle. Since it is Sunday and we lost an hour today, while I also worked late last night, I had no ambition to try more tricky approaches to this job---I took the easy route for now.

Thanks for all the input and I will advise how this scenario plays out later...

John R

 

I think that you are making good progress.

Should you decide to drop the pan, mark the drive-shaft flange so that you can return it to the same "clocked" (bolted-in) position as originally installed.

 

Thanks to all on this "Project." Max, I believe I still have the pan sludge but will let this issue go until later. I will follow up in 3 weeks and change the oil again for a 3rd time...and then see what the oil does. I did not have the impression the driveshaft had to be disconnected--it is just you would have to wiggle the pan around as well as keeping the dip tube from shifting out of it's position range--to drop it. The actual length of the tube is not very significant as far I could tell. I was not well enough under the vehicle to make a good judgment as to what is needed for space to do this.

John R :mellow:

 

I did not have the impression the driveshaft had to be disconnected

It sounds like a bit more than even that.

According to the Service Manual (see the top thread FAQ section to obtain one)...

To access the Shift Solenoids inside the trans behind the oil pan (thus to acquire the same access to the filter screen)

Manual volume 1 of 2, section:

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION (4 A/ T) 7B1-65

REMOVAL
1) Pull out dipstick and lift up vehicle.
2) With engine cooled, remove drain plug from oil pan and drain
A/T fluid.
3) Install drain plug with gasket.
Tightening Torque
(a): 23 N.m (2.3 kg-m, 17.0 lb-ft)
4) Remove exhaust pipe bracket and disconnect front propeller
shaft from front differential (if equipped).
5) Remove oil pan bolts.
6) Remove oil pan.

7) Remove oil tubes.
8) Remove solenoid valve No.1 (shift solenoid valve A and B ) or solenoid
valve No. 2 (TCC solenoid valve).

Also of note in the Manual: (bold for US specs and your H25a engine)

Fluid capacity
When draining from drain plug hole
2.5 liters (5.28/4.40 US/lmp.pt.)

When overhauling
6.9 liters (14.58/12.14 US/lmp.pt.) for G16
7.1 liters (15.00/12.50 US/lmp.pt.) for J20/H25

Have you ever dealt with replacing snapped off or stripped exhaust manifold studs, rusted together pipe connection spring fasteners, deteriorated gaskets and ancient exhaust piping? I have and it's no picnic. So look closer at the interference removal needs before taking the plunge. If JUST an exhaust bracket removal, then maybe not so bad.

Bottom line: If I were in your shoes and the transmission currently SHIFTS fine, I'd opt for the however many "pan dumps and fluid adds" that it takes to get back to pink.

 

Max, I appreciate your "Beyond and Above" efforts to inform me on this Tranny case. I knew from the git-go in December 2013, when I bought this Tracker cheap, it's tranny might be the "Achilles Heel" of the vehicle. When I was visiting a local bone yard, a yardman told me he had just shipped a Tracker salvage tranny to a customer--so I began to wonder. But, so far OK. I'm sure this tranny is a cross part for the GV as well, so this info here is very useful for anyone tempted to toy with it. I have reused the crush washer on the drain nut and I should go get a new one next time around--probably a good hardware store has them.

And yes, in 1979 I attempted to remove a frozen nut from an exhaust flange of a VW Beetle. I ended up drilling it off because a nut-cracker would not fit on the thing. I own a couple nut-crackers but they usually are too bulky to fit in places where the nuts happen to be frozen! I guess that's why torches are a common shop item these days.

The Metric thing is another... Those who use a 3/8" ratchet on the Transfer case fill/drain plug should be warned= the opening is METRIC= 10MM.

Thanks Might want to use this thread in a tranny sticky?

JR

 

Might want to use this thread in a tranny sticky?

It now resides in the Sticky FAQ's Drive-train section, in hopes that it will assist others.

 

Hello...

Just did a 3rd drain and refill. I am satisfied with the results and the fluid is pink. This procedure is quite simple on a Tracker and is more simple than doing an oil change (Less fluid is involved). Everything is well at the moment. Thanks for all the input.

JR

 

Cool then!

 

Today I decide to change the AT fluid of my 2001 GV, followed the guide lines from fordem and this might be the easiest job i have ever done on my GV. got couple of photos while im at it, thought to share it, may be some one will find it useful.

what i did was remove the AT return line from the radiator cooler, start the engine with shift on "P", let it drain (it took about 20 sec to stop fluid flowing and came out almost 4 liters). stop the engine, reconnect the cooler return hose. refill AT fluid by inserting a short piece of hose and funnel to the AT dipstick tube (about 3.5 liters). went for a test drive about 5km, start from "L" 2 and "D" so all the shift positions covered. came home and top up to the hot mark.

after i drain from cooler return hose, i also opened the drain plug of the AT pan but only couple of drops came out, not noticeable also, so i guess after drain from the cooler return hose opening the drain plug is not required.

advantage of draining from the cooler return hose is that this way about 4 liters drained. the drain plug of AT pan can only drain 2.2 -2.5 liters i guess.

I used Caltex Dexron iii ATF, as any type of Dexron iii is ok for GV according to the manual

 

The purpose of the trans pan drain plug

The purpose of the trans pan drain plug.... is to drain the pan so that when you drop the pan you don't get fluid all over. Using this for a quick drain and re-fill is possible but not really efficient. The design of the pan leaves about a 1/4" of fluid on the bottom, because where the drain plug is is raised a 1/4". This leaves all the dirt,gunk,contaminated garage at the bottom. The quickest way to clean this out is to drop the pan. Also lets you clean the magnets and replace the filter. When I did mine the fluid went from black to red. Also helped by disconnecting and drained both cooler lines. took 4.5 liters.

When auto transmissions have dark fluid, the darkness is partially caused by clutch material, wear and tear, normal after thousands of gear changes and heat. Some may still shift fine. After a service some people notice that now it shifts softer, sometimes too soft. This is because now there is less clutch material, being suspended in the fluid, running through a slightly worn transmission, hence a softer shift. To correct, if you service a trans with dark fluid, always add a transmission conditioner or high quality additive, go synthetic fluid as it is less affected by heat. This should help restore the fiction properties of the fluid.

Just my opinion and experience, hope it helps someone.