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Discussion Starter #1
Hello Kei trucks and vans lovers!

How many minutes, on the average after starting the engine does your thermostatically controlled fan (electric) operate? My truck has a front mounted radiator tank and the fan doesn't have the thermostatic switch of any kind, mentioned in some threads. The electric fan instantly fires up when i turn on the ignition. I'll use the input from you guys as the basis for the power-on delay for the fan.
 

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Ok, guys, maybe I can enlighten you on this one.

ALL liquid cooled motor vehicles come from the factory with a thermostat. The thermostat works as a temperature valve in the cooling system. The thermostat stops circulation until the engine reaches optimum operating temperature of 180 deg farenheight, or about 75 celsius. From there, as the engine increases in temperature, the thermostat opens to allow more circulation. As the engine cools, it closes to shut off circulation.

ALL manufacturers agree that an engine runs longer and much more efficiently at these temps, so they try to make them run there all the time. That is the job of the thermostat, to get it to that temp fast and keep it there. (In cold climates, a higher temp thermostat can be installed to make the cab heater work better, something you don't need to know in the Philippines!) The thermostat is always located somewhere in between the radiator and the head in the upper hose passage, but usually inside the upper hose housing which bolts to the head.

Now then, the radiator cools the circulating liquid as the thermostat allows circulation. It does so by passing the liquid through the inside of many fins, which are cooled by air passing around the outside of the fins. When a vehicle is moving, air is always passing through the outside of the fins, cooling them. When a vehicle is not moving, or is moving slowly, a fan must be used to blow air across the fins to cool them. In the old days, a fan was always added as part of the belt system.

Vehicles with electric fan add a thermostatically controlled switch to the radiator, which in effect turns the fan on when the radiator reaches a certain temperature, normally near 210 deg farenheight. The cooling fan at this point is used only when the engine is at maximum recommended temp. (An emergency device, if you will) This cools the radiator, which in turn cools the engine, as by this time the thermostat is wide open.

Now, enter the Philippines, where they have their own ideas that do not coincide with reality or the rest of the world. The first thing to go is the thermostat, second the fan switch. In their minds they want the vehicle to run as cool as possible, so they remove the thermostat and by-pass the fan switch. They don't know about efficiency or why it doesn't run like it should. They don't know that the choke is dependent upon the thermostat and the engine reaching operating temp. so that it can open. They don't know that by removing the thermostat and by by-passing the radiator thermo switch that then the choke will be very slow to open, and may not open at all, causing the vehicle to not only run much too cool for optimum operation, but will also cause it to run rich and burn WAY too much fuel! In all of these vehicles I've worked on, I have found only ONE thermostat! MOST have the radiator thermo switch by-passed. This causes a multitude of problems which they don't understand at all.

Cure? Make sure your electric thermo fan switch is working properly. It should come on just before the engine overheats, not before. Make sure your ride has a thermostat, the engine should warm up fast, reaching about the center of the temp gauge within 5 minutes, and staying near there always.

Here? Well, good luck. Nobody sells thermostats because the general population here won't buy them. (They're not needed, right?) In the US, ANY auto parts store would have 3 or more different heat ranges of thermostats to sell you. Almost NOBODY would by-pass a radiator thermo switch. In the parts stores I have walked into here, nobody would know what a thermo fan switch was, and few would know what a thermostat was.

It is not my intention to cut down the Philippines or it's people, but in many ways things are a hundred years behind the times here.

I will be more than happy to help anybody here who wants any information I may be able to provide.

Larry in Dumaguete
 

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Some mechanics wants a easy way out and don't want to think. I really want to have my thermostat install but as you said the parts are not readily available. To add on, i even want my automatic choke install.

By the way, since most suzuki vans & pick-ups are imported from Japan. Is the thermostat from a cold country work in the tropics? Norkis sell their Legacy which is an original Mira and if they still retain the thermostat, does their thermostat the same with our van considering they have the same 660 cc engine?

Now if have a seller and majority of us suzuki owners are ordering, then we can order and we might have a discount pa! A club is suitable to this kind of scenario.

What you think?:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Cool!...thanks a lot Larry for the very informative discussion...I have learned a lot. You indeed know your trade. I hope we could change the mindset of Filipino auto mechanics regarding this. Without the proper knowledge of things, we might jump into wrong conclusions like making the engine run as cool as possible. I hope I could find a mechanic who works the same way as you do. By the way, based on your detailed discussion, it seems that you're more than an auto mechanic, as stated in your intro when you joined the forum. You sound more like a writer from a 4wheeler magazine.

I have been to dumaguete last 2004. If given the chance to go back to that place, I'll look for Larry, the guru of Suzuki mini trucks/vans. hehe.

I am currently running 14-15 km/L on my Carry pickup. For sure these figures would improve if my ride employs a thermostat and thermo switch. Hmmm...where can i secure them?

I have several questions sir:
1. What type of motor oil would you recommend for these Zookis?
2. The water in my radiator tank doesn't appear greenish, I believe no coolant was added to it. Should i drain everything and follow the 50-50 water-coolant ratio? (here we go again, trying to run the engine as cool as possible). Btw, i am after the rust-busting property of the additive.

Thanks in advance.
 

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Well, to be honest, I did leave a few things out of my resume.

Everyone has their own personal preference for oil. Something I have noticed here though, more emphasis is put on whether or not the oil is for gas or diesel than it is on viscosity or specifications. Diesel engines have more requirements than gasoline engines, so diesel oil usually meets all requirements for a gasoline engine. Read the labels, SF, SE, CC, etc. Personally I use a 20W50 non detergent oil in liquid cooled engines. I don't specify a brand. Almost all air cooled engine manufactureres recommend a straight grade oil. This is because the oil temp is generally higher in air cooled engines, and straight grade oil dose not break down as fast as multi grade oil. Briggs and Stratton are test freaks, they run more tests than general motors. They ran a test using various grades of oil in their air cooled engines. They used 100 engines, put 10W30 in 50, and straight 30W in the other 50. After 1000 hours under heavy load, the engines using multi grade oil were all using a tablespoon or more per hour. The engines using 30W were using less than half a teaspoon. Quite a difference. As my father used to say though, ANY clean oil is better than ANY dirty oil!

Coolant is more important than anyone here seems to realize. Coolant has not only rust and corrosion protection, it also has lubrication for the water pump and seals. It coats the inside of hoses protecting them. Mixed 50/50 with clean water, it boils at a temperature higher than water, and freezes at a temperature lower than water. However, do not exceed the 50/50 recommended mix. Strange stuff, coolant. For some reason if you exceed the 50% mark the protection properties decrease! I would recommend you flush your system thoroughly and refill with 50/50 mix.

Hope this helps!

Larry.
 

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Thermostats all work the same way. They open when heated, and close when cool. The only difference is physical size and the temperature at which they open. The temp is usually stamped on the thermostat, 180 F., or 82 C, is the standard thermostat most manufacturers use. A higher temp can be installed in cold climate to make the heater work better, and a slightly cooler one (160 F.) can be installed in hotter climate to make the engine run a little cooler. I would not recommend putting one hotter than 180 F. (82 C.) in a vehicle in this climate.

I would say that chances are very good the thermostat out of the legacy will fit your van. Just look at the size, does it fit the hole? If so, it'll work just fine. Be sure to install the thermostat with the spring toward the inside of the engine.

I have some connections, I may be able to order thermostats if I order a quantity of them. I'll look into it when I get some time.

Larry.
 

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wow nice, now i know where to get the thermostatic switch for the radiator fan. (i by passed it my self when it broke down, 3 weeks ago)
larry your in dumaguete right? how much do you think it would cost for the thermostatic switch???
 

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Where did you find a thermostatic switch? My guess is it shouldn't cost more than about P500, finding them may be the problem. Are you confusing thermostat with thermo switch? The thermostat is a valve that shuts off water circulation, the thermo swtch is a temp controlled electric switch that turns the fan on and off.
 

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Yah I know, i'm refering to the the switch that shorts the circuit for the fan.
I just noticed about 3 weeks ago that my temp went all the way up so i turned off the engine. And when the engine was cold enough for me to open the radiator, i did and the and water/coolant was almost gone, even on the reservoir. So i tried to diagnose it by first see if the fan works, I tried to supply 12V, and it did turn. next is the thermostatic switch, I unplugged the socket and tried to short the only 2 female socket on that wire. and the fan turns when power is supplied to the engine (not on ignition, just on), w/c means taht the circuit is good. so I tried to fill the radiator w/ water, and replugged the socket for the thermostatic switch and tried to run the engine for about 3 mins. it reached the working temp about that time but the fan did not turn. w/c brings me to a conclusion that the the switch is not working. please correct me if im wrong... :lol:
also the thermostatic switch is just a simple switch? its just that its controlled by heat. is that right?

the thermostatic switch that i'm reffering to is the one in the bottom part of the radiator.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
thanks again Lar.

I might flush the system, if i have the time, this weekend and fill it with 50-50 mix. Now i know that there are benefits from the coolant beyond its rust inhibiting and boiling point tweaking properties. I'll also look into the upper radiator hose to see if there is a thermostat installed.

I have this apprehension regarding the thermo switch though. I have been talking lately with a friend who owns a Daihatsu mini truck with a thermo switch installed. I learned that his electric fan starts up approximately when he is halfway to the office, that's about 15 minutes from starting the engine. Just lastnight, he told me that the thermo switch failed and he got an engine overheat. Now i have doubts whether i should content myself with the current setup (with the annoying electric fan's buzzing sound before engine startup) or gamble with a thermo switch setup. If what's available is a surplus thermo switch, i might as well settle for the former.

What do you think Sir?
 

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sir, good morning.

i am new here and just trying to find helpful thing for my suzuki. by the way i owned a suzuki scrum with F6A 12 valve engine 5 speed manual transmission, the one located at the rear portion. i've read the above post and learned a lot from them, sir just wondering why my toy would only run on the average of 9-10 km/lt on city driving.. where from my readings above it would usually go as 14-15 km/lt...

please help...and thanks a lot...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
A lot of guys in our forum can discuss technical things with you regarding improving fuel economy. Things pertaining to carburetion, valve timing, etc. Maybe the only thing I could share with you is regarding driving habits and a few info on this and that.

* don't step on the accelerator pedal too much (rev up) in order to shift gears. I usually press lightly on the pedal and wait for the engine to gain enough momentum (i just use this term because we are not equipped with a tachometer to monitor RPM) on its own and shift to the next higher gear.
* Inflate your tires properly. I think it's 26-28 psi, unloaded.
* I'm using 13" wheels on my ride with large lugs so it is has a larger overall diameter than the original 12" wheels with hi-miler type tires. With this, my odometer reading is about 20% less than the actual kilometers.
* the constant start-stop in city driving would consume a lot fuel than highway driving.
* do away with unnecessary loads from your truck.
* don't accelerate when going uphill. The engine is already exerting too much effort to overcome the effects of gravity.
 

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Good advice, Lance. For good fuel mileage and proper engine performance everything needs to be in tune. There are hundreds of things that can negatively effect fuel performance. Proper carberation and ignition are paramount.

Probably the single largest cause of poor mileage as far as engine performace is concerned (if everything else appears to be in order) is improperly set ignition timing, or faulty timing advance. At idle, most engines run best with the ignition timing set at somewhere near 10 degees before top dead center. (BTDC) As engine RPM increases, ignition timing should advance to usually about 35 to 40 degrees BTDC at 4000 RPM, give or take. This is usually accomplished using two separate methods of timing advance, namely vaccuum and mechanical (centrifugal).

The vaccuum advance of course is the hose that connects to the distributor. At idle, there should be no vaccuum to the vaccuum advance. When you step on the accelerator, vaccuum then goes to the distributor which advances the ignition timing. Some distributors have two hoses going to them. In this case, one is for vaccuum advance, the other is for vaccuum retard. Vaccuum retard is an emission control device which retards the timing when you decelerate. This actually will not effect your fuel mileage.

Without a timing light, it is nearly impossible to accurately test these systems, however, there are some simple tests you can make.

There is a quick easy way to test the centrifugal advance. Remove the distributor cap and lightly turn the rotor clockwise. It should turn just a little bit, then stop. When released, it should return freely to where it was. If it does, chances are it is working properly.

The vaccuum advance is a little trickier. With the distributor cap removed, suck on the hose going to the distributor. The breaker plate should move. While sucking, place your tongue on the end of the hose. The breaker plate should not return, and you should feel the vaccuum hold on your tongue. Remove your tongue, and the plate should return. The breaker plate is where the points or electronic ignition pickup attach to inside the distributor. If this seems to work properly, proceed.

Make sure that you have no vaccuum to the distributor at idle, then lightly accelerate the engine. You should be able to feel just a small amount of vaccuum on the hose going to the distributor. Many times it will be difficult to feel it, a vaccuum gauge is recommended. If you have no vaccuum, check that the hose goes to the correct port on the carberator. On most of these that I have tested, the correct port is the one furthest the rear of the vehicle, where the carberator bolts to the intake manifold. This may not be true on all models.

Without having the vehicle in my presence, it would be very difficult to diagnose problems in the vaccuum advance systems. Without a timing light, it is nearly impossible to be sure, but with these simple tests, you may be able to make an initial test and find a problem.

Larry.

Mechanical advance involves a set of weights inside the distributor that advance the timing as the engine speed increases.
 

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Thermostat valve

Hi there guys!

I was able to acquire a thermostat valve from a friend who believes that he does'nt need it and was about to throw it away. I clean and check if it still works so i put it in a boiling water and after a few minutes i heard a clicking sound. The thermostat valve is still working. The valve has an operating temperature of 82 C.

Will this work in our Manila traffic or should I buy a brand new at Suzuki? They still make the Suzuki Bravo with an F10 engine so i am sure the thermostat valve fits with our F6 engine. I just hope it has a lower temperature as advise by shadownseiko.

I already change my radiator from a 2 row and replace a 3 row that is the same as the Suzuki carry with an F10 engine. So will this work if i add the thermostat valve or should I return to a 2 row engine?

What's your advice guys!

Thanks!
 

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Isn't it true that when your radiator hasn't been running with a coolant for some time and then you suddenly decide to put coolant, there is the tendency that rust which has already embedded itself would be removed and might produce a leak?
 

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Yes, that is always a possibility. However, doing that and fixing the leak will always be advantageous over not doing it and facing additional problems later.

For anyone interested, Reliance in Cebu has thermostats in the P250 range. You can talk to them at SM mall and they will have it there for you in a few hours.

Larry.
 

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After reading this thread I immediately started the ignition on my carry and true enough, the fan automatically went on after ignition. When I was about to turn off the engine, somehow I turned the ignition key slower than usual and when the key was at the halfway mark before the engine off notch, the fan turned off while the engine was still running!

What do you guys think of this? A manual radiator fan switch!
 
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