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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My 92 US model 2wd and automatic trans runs rich for a few minutes after starting when cold,it runs good at first with high idle but after a minute the high idle goes away and it loads up unless I give it a little gas. I replaced the coolant temp sensor when I change the thermostat but no change and the check engine light is not on when running. I have a Snap On MT2500 scanner but it looks like I can hook it up to any vehicle except for a Tracker so anyone know where to start on finding out what is going on.
 

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First, for the 92 (OBD1) you don't need any scanner. You need a metal paperclip to jump for codes. Info here on how to do it:
Check Engine Light
Presumably your car is 8v. When the car starts up, it is supposed to rev at about 2000 or so rpm for about 5-10 seconds, and then you will hear a very definite drop of rpm to about 1500 rpm as the throttle opener closes (this does not happen on the 16v, as no throttle opener on that engine). Then the car continues to run 'rich' purposefully as the mechanical idle air valve is open so that the car warms up faster. Normally this will close within 5 minutes or so of first start, and then you should be running at proper 800 rpm warm idle.
So, a number of questions:
Is your check engine light on with the key on?
What is your warm idle?
Do you have great heat in the car (car warming up properly)?
Maybe give some more info as to exactly what your problem is....and what 'loads up' means????
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am going to change thermostats again since I still do not have much heat since I think the part store gave me the wrong temp thermostat,it has black smoke coming out the exhaust and runs rough. Its acting like it has a carb with a bad choke pull off and runs rich only for about 5 minutes after starting cold and then runs good until it is cold again,the CEL will come on with the key on run position but does not come on when the motor is running. I would like to use my scanner as it will run tests.
 

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I don't know what is needed to get your scanner to read the ECU - maybe Rhino knows (he has designed a computer program that does this on the older cars). I imagine you would need an adaptor to connect it, as well as the software.
In any event, having poor heat is a good indication that the car is not warming up properly. On your car, the thermostat housing is 4mm deep, and you will need a 5mm o-ring around the thermostat (normally sold from 180F-195F) to make sure that the thermostat is not floating around in the housing. A cooling system flush is probably a good idea, as well. The ECU will continue to force the car to run rich in an effort to warm the car up, so you would need to at least get the heat going properly before trying to diagnose this further, if the problem continues to exist. An IR thermometer pointed at the thermostat housing, radiator, etc., would give you a good indication of how hot the car is running.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I know the lack of heat is probably the cause of the not so great gas mileage since the motor is not warming up but the too rich situation is right after start up before the motor even has a chance to get slightly warm and is goes away before any heat comes out of the heater. I noticed that the colder it gets outside the worse the problem is.
 

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Have you ever replaced your o2 sensor?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Original O2 sensor and 86,000 miles and I noticed the high idle has a mind of its own,sometimes its not there at initial start and will speed up after a minute then off in a minute and noticed it idling fast while driving. I am going to replace the intake air temp sensor since I had a couple other cars where when it went bad the high idle was not right and then look into the O2 sensor.
 

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I would deal with the fact that you have poor heat, first. It would seem that the car is not heating up properly, which is dependent on your thermostat and cooling system. The ECU will continue to try to heat the car up by forcing the car to run rich. You need to have a properly warmed up car before you start diagnosing elsewhere, I think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Something else is wrong other then the thermostat,its acting this way right after start up before the motor can even start to warm up. The black smoke goes away and it starts to run better before the temp gauge even moves,it might use more fuel since the motor is not completely warmed up but the extremely rich situation is only right after start up and goes away in a few minutes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Put another thermostat in it tonight and got the gauge to about the half way mark so I think I got the motor running a little hotter and will see how it does in the morning,the heater was a little better but I think the heater core is plugged so I will try to flush it out this weekend.
 

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When flushing the heater core, if you are doing it from the pipes at the firewall, make sure you have new jubilee clips to attach the hoses, as the original ones will be unusable - they will probably be 'baked' into the hoses and a bit difficult to get off. You should also check the hose ends at the core pipes as well, as when I flushed the cores pipes and put the original hoses back on, the ends of the hoses were a bit compromised and leaked. Had to be changed out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Still tuns rich when cold after the T stat change which I thought it would still do since it only happens when cold but the motor seems to run better now that its getting up to the correct running temp,I changed the coolant temp sensor with the first T stat change so the only other temp related sensor I can think of is the air charge sensor so its getting replaced next. My Snap On scanner can run tests to find bad sensors but no way to hook it up to this car and do not want to just start throwing parts at it.
 

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Can you explain exactly what the car does from first cold start, what it idles at, etc? What are the symptoms that are causing you to determine that it is running rich??
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Black smoke and running rough and only for a few minutes then it smooths out and its running good by the time the temp gauge starts to move up,a google search came up with the oil being too thick and causing the lifters to pump up too much with changing to 5w20 oil fixing the problem. What ever is causing the problem is not setting any codes and the colder it is the worse it runs so that situation is starting to make sense since the colder it is the thicker the oil gets,with in 5 minutes of start up its running good.
 

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Black smoke normally indicates oil burning, rather than running rich (too much fuel). You may want to check your valve stem seals. What sometimes happens is that with the seals leaking, the oil settles on top of the piston when you turn the car off. When you restart the car, this oil is burned off and sent through the exhaust valves. The ECU does not pick up on mechanical problems - but the rule of thumb is black smoke during driving is piston rings, black smoke just at start up is valve stem seals. IMHO
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I wish I could blame the trans shop who rebuilt the trans for all the problems since it seemed to happen after it was rebuilt,they took my sister almost 3000 dollars to rebuild it and then it started having electrical issues in the brake light switch area shortly after. When she brought it up from Florida all the brake light switch wires were melted togather so with a switch and partial harness from the junkyard I had the stop lights working,never could get the torque convertor to look up and with the relay hooked it would blow the ECM fuse so it just got left off and working like a old 3 speed automatic without a lock up convertor. I thought everything was fine but when I was leaving the shop today I could not get the shifter to move so I checked and the stop light fuse was blown and then when I got where I was going it would not shut off,the wires for the brake light switch were melted togather again so I seperated them and cut out the wires for the convertor and capped off the power wire for the convertor and its back to working again. I was looking at the wiring diagram in the shop manual and the power for the lock up convertor switch is also the power source for the O2 sensor so maybe that is my cold start issue and will find out in the morning,the two wires for the convertor at the switch were melted togather and melted to the power wire for the stop light which was feeding back to the ignition.
 

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I think that is one of the ugliest posts I have ever read, sadly.

The torque converter runs off the ig-coil fuse, which is a black/white wire that runs many circuits: fuel pump relay, alternator, ignition coil, instrument panel gauges, indicator lights, main relay, noise suppressor, o2 heater, stoplamp switch in the auto tranny and the warning alarm controller. So, it would seem that your problem lies with this (pretty complicated) circuit.
 

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Black smoke normally indicates oil burning, rather than running rich (too much fuel). You may want to check your valve stem seals. What sometimes happens is that with the seals leaking, the oil settles on top of the piston when you turn the car off. When you restart the car, this oil is burned off and sent through the exhaust valves. The ECU does not pick up on mechanical problems - but the rule of thumb is black smoke during driving is piston rings, black smoke just at start up is valve stem seals. IMHO
Sorry to inform you that you are not correct...


OIL = blue smoke (lingering)
Black = rich condition
White = coolant/condensation (fast dissipation)...

.... Philip
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
After capping the power wire to the lock up convertor it seems to run better and does not run rough as long as it did before,since the power source for the convertor and O2 sensor are shared I wounder if it did any damage to the O2 sensor.
 

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What do you mean by 'capping'? Disabling? The o2 and TCC share the same wire, up to a splice just by the windshield wiper motor on the firewall. Maybe give more info as to what you did?
 
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