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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
Hi All,

I recently developed the cold start rumble noise, disappears after 30 sec - 1min. if I don't let the engine warm up at all (late for work) it disappears as soon as I engage a gear and let out the clutch. once stopped at the first set of lights (less than 30 sec away), clutch pressed the noise will be present but go again once I move/engine warms up.

Interestingly if the cluch is pressed or the gears in neutral, if I rev the engine a little higher the noise also disappears.

I read the anti-drain-back oil filter issue and oil change. (I have had no issues driving for a year with the filter). Yesterday I changed the oil and filter, used a engine oil cleaning/conditioning solution before draining oil.

There is still a rumble. I can replicate it when warm also. gears neutral rev high 3500-4000rpm and then quickly let foot off gas, engine will return to idle but there will be a short grumble on its way down. my car idles perfectly ie when cold 1200rpm drops to 800rpm 1-5 min later (depending on how cold it is)

1): Should the noise have stopped immediately on oil and filter change, or can it take a few miles of driving before it will stop?

2): If it should have stopped immediately, what could it be?

Cheers,
Ros
 

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There's a few of red flags there first off...

driving for a year with the filter
used a engine oil cleaning/conditioning solution
anti-drain-back oil filter issue
What weight oil?

Whose filter did you use as a replacement?

Is your oil light on at hot idle?

What is the condition of your engine internals (debris?) as viewed under the oil fill cap?

I'd verify oil pressure with a remote gauge and swap in a quality filter (OE, Purolator, WIX) if not already installed.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Hi thanks for the reply.

Maybe one red flag.

Filter is not "high quality" it is store recommended and has anti drain back.

Oil is 5w 30
No debris in engine,
No engine lights.

Car actually runs great, 33mpg starts proper and idles quietly when warm.

Driving for a year equates to 10,000km short distances in Ireland. Once a year filter change is the norm, is this car special?

Conditioning fluid was only added to engine oil prior to draining old oil. Car ran for 20mjn with solution added. All oil drained, new filter and new oil.

Should the noise have stopped? Could it be something else.

Timing was done at 90,000 clock is now at 134,000km.

Ros
 

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It would probably be better if you could actually define where this 'rumble' comes from more definitely. Or actually what a rumble is - a metal sound?? Definitely coming from the engine? Or is it possible it's coming from the tranny, considering that much of your evaluation has to do with the clutch, moving, neutral, etc. Have you ever checked the tranny and transfer case fluid (or replaced them?) While it may not be the 'norm', I have religiously changed my oil and oil filter every 3,000 miles, for the past 19 years. Even more important on an older car.
 

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Driving for a year equates to 10,000km short distances in Ireland. Once a year filter change is the norm, is this car special?
Ever read the owner's manual for the car? There's a section titled "maintenance recommended under severe driving conditions" and in that section you'll see the oil & filter listed as having a 3,000 mile (5,000 km) or 3 month replacement cycle under Codes ABDEF - B is "repeated short trips".

Repeated short trips are extremely hard on a gasoline engine, the majority of engine wear occurs on a cold start and because the engine never really runs at operating temperature for any length of time, the oil does not get hot enough to burn off moisture etc..

I'm also curious as to what distance the car has actually covered, as I see you switching between kilometers for distance and miles per gallon, for consumption - 134,000 km of short trips equates to a fair bit of engine wear, and if the maintenance has been neglected, it's possible that what you are hearing is piston slap.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am not only owner this car has had. I bought it at 115,000km, timing done at 90,000 current clock 134,000. 10,000km/year approx for me.

yes we operate in km over hear but I appreciate most people talk in mpg and not L/100km. I was only trying to describe that my Vit is not a beater and runs really well other than this new sound. (yes all gearing oil has been changed recently diffs, gears, transfer case)

I think Bex is right, instead of trying to describe the sound I will record a sample of this in a couple of days. I think this is starting to go more towards a discussion of my maintenance habits as opposed to solving a problem.

I would love clarification on one question: if this sound was related to the oil filter, would that sound have stopped as soon as I changed the filter and oil, or would it take a few days of driving or a long drive to stop?

Cheers,
Ros
 

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This malady is just too difficult to precisely determine without knowing at least the general origin of the sound. :(

The after oil change appearance of the noise suggests weight change or filter drain back disorder. Possibly an ill side effect of the oil additive / cleaner too.

Then again, the now noise occurrence (with regard to clutch actuation) suggests drive-line issues, possibly excessive engine main bearing thrust surface wear or clutch / transmission related problem coincident w/the engine oil change.

The recorded sound for examination may help. An on-lift running and stethoscope probing ID even better! ;)
 

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... Conditioning fluid was only added to engine oil prior to draining old oil. Car ran for 20mjn with solution added. All oil drained, new filter and new oil. ...
I have become a bit sceptical of "fixes in a bottle" and of anything that would thin out the oil... I have always thought it was taking a chance of damaging a bearing or something in the lower end. (A bit late on this advice... )
 

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Conditioning fluid was mentioned several time without the mention of a specific product name. Are you not willing to share what this product name that was used?
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Wynn's Engine Flush

Engine noise existed before flush was added. flush added for 20min and then all oil was drained, oil filter replaced (filtron/WIX) and 5w 30 new oil added.

The noise continued, no worse than before, perhaps a little better but not gone.

I take your point in not using engine flush. Having read the bottle it sounded like it would be a good thing. Now that I know there is no sludge/gunk building in the sump I will not use flush in the future and will endeavor to change filter twice a year (every 5000km's).

I don't think engine flush has contributed to the noise (I am not saying it has help solve the issue). I guess right now until I get a chance to probe further for a sound, I wanted to know could the new filter be at fault.

ie people who have previously heard this start up rumble sound and solved it by changing filters, did the noise disappear immediately or does it take a few 100km of driving before the noise went away?

Also clutch is only 1year old.

Cheers,
Ros
 

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people who have previously heard this start up rumble sound and solved it by changing filters, did the noise disappear immediately or does it take a few 100km of driving before the noise went away?
Ah! Ok. To answer that...yes, engine sounds attributed to a poor anti-drainback valve / filter issue will cause only momentary sounds (lasting seconds) at start-up. Switching to a quality filter will lessen that event's duration, and work immediately, as opposed to waiting miles for correction.

You've got something else going on there. :( And like you mentioned, you (we) need to hone in on the noise origin.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Max,

That was the short answer I needed. I guess i asked it wrong.

Weather permitting; I will try and hone in on the sound over the weekend. I'll take a recording in case it is a distinctive sound for a particular problem. Also it will save using vague terms like rumble/rattle etc.
 

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Clean recording would be nice, especially if the engine has an accent (Irish)...


.... Philip
 

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I think this is starting to go more towards a discussion of my maintenance habits as opposed to solving a problem.
Ah, not at all - it's just that we cannot see the car, nor know it's history or its maintenance, so not unusual to ask for those details. Not meant to be taken personally!! ;)

And if the engine has an Irish accent, I can always be called in to interpret - I have become accustomed to it by now.....
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Thanks for all the help, not taking anything personally we are all used to how tone can be misinterpreted through text. ;)

I will do my best at the weekend, but I think I have discovered that it is not a cold start up issue.

Car was warm and idling quietly, I brought revs up very slowly, rattle/rumble is only when revs are at 1500, tiny bit more or less and it goes. I guess I have associated it with cold start as the engine idles around this point when cold (current cold for Ireland), and drops a little 30-60 sec later enough of a drop for the sound to stop.

It is definitely a new sound, not something that has always been there. the fan and radio disguise it nicely in the morning :D
 

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A better situation then....if you can duplicate this each time you hold the revs at 1500 rpm or so, have someone do this for you, and open your hood and try to locate where the sound is coming from. If you don't have a mechanics stethoscope, use a length of hose to your ear, and try to isolate where the sound is coming from.
 

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If you try the hose trick do not hold the hose directly pointed at your ear. Hold the hose next to your ear but pointed back over your shoulder or something. I wouldn't want something pressurised (like an exhaust leak) to be channelled into your ear. You can hear any noise just fine with it NEXT to your ear...

I wasn't going to reply, but as I am typing the safety tip anyway...

Note that the thread title: "Rough engine noise after oil filter change" made me think the noise STARTED with an oil change... including a chemical flush. But re-reading the first post, I now understand you had the noise and it did not go away even after an oil change... with a flush with a product that has to be the best thing ever for the motor.... it says it right on the can!

Understand the confusion?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Bex: That's the plan this weekend (rain permitting and kitesurfing not permitting!)

M00035: Yes I realised after the fact that the title is misleading. I thought of changing it but not sure if I can or if it would affect people currently following it. My apologies.

"Rough engine noise continues, even after oil filter change"

And thanks for the safety concern,
Cheers,
Ros
 

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I've edited the original post to change the subject.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hi All,
Thought I should conclude this thread.

Further symptoms developed:
• Rattle noise progressed and became noticeable while driving.
• However it was isolated at 1500rpm above and below this was fine.
• Not oil back flush issue from oil filter and nothing to do with start-up, it just happened to be heard as the engine warmed up the first 3-5 sec before the idle drops.
• Symptoms were odd until the weather improved, during the winter when it first occurred the sound could reoccur intermittently, in traffic. I now know that this was temperature related i.e. on cold harsh days it takes a little longer for the rpm to drop to 800 thus the noise occurred intermittently for 15min


Solution:
• A few months ago I put the car on ramps and had a look under while the faithful GF brought up the revs to 1800.
• Did not need a hose or stethoscope to isolate, heat shield around exhaust (vertical section between valve header and before it turns horizontal) was loose, weld lines cracked.
• I fixed this and just last week a new similar sound occurred, but it was below idle, only heard when car moving slowly an in slightly higher gear than ideal i.e. traffic 2nd gear; harder to find when on ramp. Engine warm 800rpm, could only be located by short bursts of throttle.
• Again Heat Shield issue, this time on the top side of the expansion box (middle of car)

Fixed and silent.:D

On a side note the zook just went through NCT and passed (Ireland's Car Roadworthy Test – annually for vehicles over 10years). She really does run well. Emissions very low, suspension, brakes & side-slip tested perfect, happy days.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions.
 
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