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The confusion lies in whether you are flooring the throttle pedal when you pump (which would affect fuel delivery), or just lightly touching the pedal when you pump (affecting air intake). I’m wondering now if the issue isn’t with fuel delivery, if you are actually flooring the pedal when you pump…???? So, what if you floor the pedal without pumping. Will it start that way??
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
Company showed up last night and I was not able to get to the tracker ;-/
Off to work. Looking like Sunday…

I never floored it, just slight pumping, but will try to floor it and see what it does.
 

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Flooring it will put it in flood mode and cut the fuel... Just saying !
 

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Flooring it will put it in flood mode and cut the fuel... Just saying !
Yes, but he says he’s not flooring it, but ‘feathering’ or pumping the pedal slightly, but not all the way to the floor. As it’s only partially done, I thought perhaps he was providing more air to start up, but it won’t start with the pedal just depressed part way. For some reason, he needs to ‘feather‘ (slightly pump). ???? Edit: willing to get any suggestions, as I’m a bit stumped….
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Ok, I floored it and tried to start it. I rolled over and over about 6 times and then started, putt putt putt, like it was only running on one cylinder. I took my foot off the throttle, it started hitting on all 4, or normal sounding, and the idle was about 900 but started to climb. Like its supposed to but wanting to check and set the TPS, I just shut it back down.

Now to set the TPS, it shows adjusting that throttle adjustment with stacking all those feeler gauges together. Then it tells me to adjust the TPS.
I think I will just adjust the TPS now and see what it does and report my findings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
Well……..Going to go back and start from scratch again. Something is screwy for sure.

I fired it up, had to press down on the throttle just a tad, it started, raved up to about 1800, no quick fall back once the computer comes on line, rpms dropped to about 1000rpms.
I let it warm up and Now its surging, meaning rpms are rising and lowering.

This is Nuts, while warming up, and once the rpms dropped to that 1000 rpms but you could count, 1, 2, 3 and the rpms would go back up to about 1800 rpms. I have Never had it do anything like that, nor ever had surging trying to idle.

The surging or I should call it, Hesitation while driving was only up accelorating fast like your pulling onto a busy Hwy and you need to get your speed up to the hwy speed.

Now, after all of this, once it gets warm, driving it on the road, she seems to accelerate faster and you can feel more power. What in the hell did I do to change that other than the cold start valve and acting like a vacuum leak.

I am missing something for sure. Some sequence of setting not in order or something. I pulled the TPS back off and put it on the bench and tested it as per Factory and fixkick web site instructions and, its Fine.
While on the bench, I noted a heasitation or break in the ohms when rolling it back and forth but after changing my connection to it, It was fine so I know that rheostat part of it is working like it should too.

The EGR is working, and not sticking. The sensor for the cold start throttle is working.
My helper was able to turn the ignition switch on and off, hit the starter and I watched it retract, its working.

I am going to wait for it to get stone cold tonight and go out and try it again and willing to bet, it will act different

I have Got to be missing something. Hell, I even did the timing jumper and checked the timing, all is good.

All the vacuum hoses have been replace with new, I even check those to see if one might have came loose or off.
Shot WD-40 around the intake, no rpm change.

I found my fuel pressure tester and will even check that to make sure I am getting enough fuel.

I also have to go out tomorrow and get some gas welding rod (no more wire hangers, besides, too much carbon in them) to finish that Welch nut tool and I will just put the thing back were it was when I started this process.

I am not sure where the surging thing at idle came from, that just started….

If this thing keeps this up, it might drive me to the loony ben. I have Got to be missing something….What could I be missing?? I have already double checked all the sensors to assure they were doing what they should be. Geeze….
 

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I suspect that perhaps the surging idle has come from the TPS. There’s a very specific way to calibrate the idle switch in the TPS, involving retracting the throttle opener, the correct feeler gauge size, etc, all of which is done with the TPS on the car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
I was messing with that to adjust the idle and well, did not go back and correct it when I set the TPS.
I am just going to guess that I need to get my feeler gauges and do that whole process over. Check the throttle cable adjustment and work my way back to the TPS setting.

I started it this morning. No start without pressing down a little on the throttle. I mean just little too. It started and then died, pressed down again, it started and died. Started it again, and feathered it until it started to raise up and when it did, it went up to 2100 to 2200 rpms.
I don’t care what the engine is supposed to take but I will never start a cold engine have it rev up like that. I don’t even like it going to 2000 rpms when cold.
I forget now what its supposed to rev up too. 1800 would be fine by me. At this point, I would be ok even with having to feather the throttle as long as it would run as good as it does out on the road right now.

Got to run some errands this morning so will get back on the tracker once got my feeler gauges back out of my tool box in the storage unit..
 

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I understnad your fear, but even mama suzuki says up to 2500 fast idle is fine.... mine is a carb model, stays for quite a while at 2000 till the wax actuator warms up, never worried me, no issues
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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
Well, Ok……..Just starting a cold engine and reving it up makes me nervous…..
Also I don’t like running things much over 3K on a long run either. Its just a Old V8 guy talking…
I was told this runs all day long at about 3500 rpm on the highway….

So, check this out. I think I might have found my problem with all of this.

Tell me I am wrong but I think I have the wrong TPS on this throttle body. Look at the tabs inside the throttle body, then look at the tabs on the TPS switch. 90 Degrees off…….I was just turning it until it dropped in the hole and it was adjusting up so I am really lost now.

I might have another TPS in the crate over in the storage unit, going to go get that and see if one is in there.
Check this out. I don’t see how this could work…..

Automotive tire Motor vehicle Alloy wheel Rim Hubcap
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
Ok, I see it. I was not able to see the ware spots until looking Much closer.
See, I am getting goofy..

I went to the storage unit were I have two big tubs of just about Everything I was able to unbolt from that Sidekick I used the 4 wheel drive from. I mean Every nut, bolt, spacer, starter, wiper motor, wiper controls, steering column, seatbelts, and I mean Every but the bare body. All of the dash, door hinges and parts. I even have a metal ammo box that is Full of all the metric nuts and bolts in it.

And I found the other TPS switch, tested it, compared it to the one that is on the tracker now and its a working one so I have a backup for that as well..

I will set the TPS and then the throttle cable adjustment. Check, check and double check things again.
 

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I have an 8 valve like you, often do 1-2 hour stretches and more at 4000 rpm, these are overhead camshaft engines, they are built for that kind of revs,

they are in theory redlined at 6000, so 4000 is mid-range :)

if you have a spare TPS, why not swap them and see?

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Well, that information is Great to hear. The short story behind my tracker is, no rust, replaced just about everything new that was available for it. Including a fresh rebuilt engine with a new cam shaft, new forged pistons, good rings in which I spent over $2000 for the long block but it has a 7 year, 100.000 mile warranty on it. Spending that kind of money, I think those boys knew the weakness of that engine and replace it with best or much better parts.

My big mistake is, I am a Old mechanic. I even worked on the old flathead Ford engines, worked at two dealerships but this was back in the 70’s and 80’s where you were lucky to get a 100K out of a engine.

Now I will not worry so much and make sure I am under 4K rpms. Thank you !!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
Ok, update on settings.
This time I went by the factory service manual to the letter. I rechecked everything that I had been monkeying with.
The only thing I did not do was the cold start valve. That is still 1/4 turn out from were I started with it. Once I get some welding rod, I will finish the welch nut tool and take that apart, clean it and try and put it back were it was and adjust from that point.

I found when going though the sequence that I was way off on the throttle setting. I was able to stack the feeler gauges up, followed the directions, set that, set the TPS, then set the throttle cable slack.

I was working in the sun blasting down on the motor again so not the best testing time but I started it up, let it warm up and test drove it.

This time, it started up without touching the throttle. It just idled around 800rpm, then went up to about 1800 rpms.
It was almost a minute before the idle started dropping down and then down to about 1200rpms, then as it warmed up, dropped down to 800 rpms.

Once warm, I went for a test drive and I notice a little hesitation when accelerating up to the point were you shift to the next gear, once on the hwy, I noticed a change too.
Let’s replace the word bogging with the word laboring. I could tell I did not have full power like I did yesterday. Just enough change that you could notice it, not real bad, but noticeable.
I have No idea what I changed that is causing that laboring issue.

The real test will be in the morning when she is stone cold.
I am not ready to give up and settle for much less, But, all those parts Are old even thou they test out more within range of acceptance.

Next thing to look at ?
 

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Just a couple of thoughts. I, too, don’t like high revving on a cold engine, but assume that as Suzuki engineers view 2000 rpm or so ok for cold start, then it‘s ok with me. To assuage my dislike of the high rev, I don’t run the engine higher than about 2500 rpm until the engine is warmed up.
So, with the new TPS adjustment, the engine now starts without touching the throttle. Progress. Again, on a cold start, it should immediately rev to about 2000 rpm ,and then in 5 to 10 seconds, you should hear the idle definitely drop 500 rpm or so, as the throttle opener snaps closed. Thus far, I don’t recall any testing on that circuit (VSV, etc.) to see if this is even working. It only works for 5 seconds, though, so not tremendously important. It’s important to advise if you are working on a cold engine or a warm one. If the engine is cooled down, you should expect higher idle, even if you’ve run the engine earlier in the day.
As we’re fiddling around, it’s also important to confirm that your plugs are gapped properly, engine timed properly, valve lash properly set, the EGR is closed when it’s supposed to be, etc. Old cars can have more than one issue. Hopefully, the issue of needing to use the throttle to get it to start has now been fixed. So then on to the next issue….lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
I started it this morning after she sat all night. It turned over and over and over about 6 times. I taped the throttle down just a tad to get it started, it died when I let my foot off the throttle. Taped it down again, it started so feathered it about 4 seconds and then the RPM’s went up to 2000 rpms After about 10 to 15 seconds, it dropped back like it was supposed to do.
I did not wait until it was totally up to operating temp and started off to work. I noticed it bogged or hesitated while accelerating up to shifting speed in low gear only. Came to the stop sign, engine getting warmer, from the stop sign that was three city blocks away, took off and this time, no bogging or hesitation. Once warm, no hesitation.

The outside temp was about 75 degrees after work today and I did not give it time to warm up after taping the throttle and feathering it. I just drove away and notice just a small big of bogging but not bad at all.

Now this time, no laboring while trying to get up to hwy speed like it did yesterday.

Seems it keeps changing on me so will see what it does tomorrow.

No more than 3000 miles ago, I checked the valve lash and installed new spark plugs.
I agree with you, I will pull the valve cover off and check them again and also check the plugs to assure the gap is set properly as well as make sure they all look the same,

This has really been discouraging as of yesterday, I checked and set everything including the EGR valve.

Having to tap the throttle a little to get it started, feather it until the RPM’s go up, no change so still needing to get the welch nut tool finished and get that out, cleaned and back in. I didn’t seem to find how to adjust that in the manual, it just said what it was supposed to do?

Once up to operating temp, she has Never ran this good before. That is a Big plus.

Its not eating enough air when cold starting….I need to get that figured out is all.
Can’t thank you all for the help, just wish I had better results to share with eveyone.
 

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Taped it down again, it started so feathered it about 4 seconds and then the RPM’s went up to 2000 rpms After about 10 to 15 seconds, it dropped back like it was supposed to do.
It is SUPPOSED to start up at about 2000 rpm, and within 5 seconds or so, the idle should drop to 1500 rpm, and then slowly drop down over the course of about 5 minutes, to 800 rpm warm idle. Is that what it is doing???
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
Hey Bex……Yes its supposed too but its not doing it quite like that. It will stay at 2000 rpms 15+ seconds now, then if I remember right, it would drop a couple more times down to 900 rpms. Its like holds onto the 2000, then drops once, maybe to the 1500 and then falls off to the 900 rpms.

Any idea on what could be causing things to change symptoms without any changes other than the outside temp ?
I mean you think you got it tweaked in and the next thing you know, stuff changed. Like the cold starting.

If I Tap the throttle peddle down (Just like you would on a Carb to release the choke so it would close), it starts but then it will just die. I do that again, tap it, Oh Wait….This might be important. I tap it or press it down just a small amount, like the choke thing on a carb but I have to “Hold it down” for it to start, but it will die unless I feather it by pressing it down again and again and again until the computer gets it and takes the rpms up to the 2000. That is normally about 3 to 5 seconds. And, even That changes. Some times only have to feather it three times to keep it running, then other times I have to feather it five times before the rpms go up to 2000…

I keep thinking I am missing something simple I should be doing but been going by the book, word for word.
 

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The default position of that throttle opener at the rear of the engine is open, meaning that it’s allowing more air in until the computer gets online, activates the VSV to it, and shuts the diaphragm. So you should have that massive ‘vacuum leak’ from the throttle opener immediately as you try to start from cold start. Have you ever confirmed that the throttle opener is working as it should? AFAIK, that slight depression of the throttle is related to extra air given at cold start. And the circuits that are involved are the throttle opener, the wax pellet valve and the idle speed solenoid.
Other than that, I suppose anything that communicates with the ECU with regard to temperature, like the coolant temp sensor, could indicate incorrectly….signaling that the engine is warm when it isn’t, etc. I don’t know why symptoms change from day to day…..:(
 
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