[djSL]

Greetings All!

I've been lurking on this forum for a while during the last year or so of owning my Vitara, and finally decided to join after hitting some road blocks. I've searched several threads and while there is a lot of great information, it seems diagnostic info and FSM's are hard to come by these days (Acks Faq's server is down). That said, I'm hoping the all mighty Suzuki wizards can help steer me in the right direction. On to the details!

Vehicle:
1992 Suzuki Vitara. Imported from Germany to the USA by previous owner
16v 4 Door

Issue in order of events:
-Vehicle ran great for a year until all of a sudden, it started getting really low on power in the lower RPM range and gas mileage suffered.
-Thinking the issue was related to the 02 sensor (this vehicle only has one, on the manifold), I found the #4 runner cracked all the way around.
-I had the manifold welded by a shop, and installed a new 02 sensor. The problem persisted.
-At this point, I did a cold compression test and found all cylinders to be at 170 psi. On a cold engine, this seems more than sufficient
-My friend insisted the cap and rotor were bad, so he tore it off without notating the rotor position (the car has NEVER started since)
-Now the car cranks but gets no spark
-There was corrosion on the cap and rotor contacts, so I replaced these with brand new parts (still no spark, despite aligning the rotor)
-I did notice the crank pulley was wobbling at low load/rpm and found the crank bolt sheared off inside the crank snout (great).
-Since the car wouldn't start anyway, I extracted the broken bolt, Loctite 660'd a new key in place, installed a new crank timing cog/gear/ and torqued it down to 94 ft/lbs
-Following the information available on KickFix, I set the crank gear to TDC on #1 cylinder and the camshaft to TDC based on the #4 cylinder, aligned the rotor to 1PM and set the firing order per FixKick (1,3,4,2 in a counter-clockwise manner).
-Still no start
-I realized I've never seen the check engine light come on, so I tore apart the gauge cluster and found the bulb had been removed. Awesome.
-Replaced bulb, jumped diagnostic connector and received a code 42 for CKP/CPS? sensor or circuit issue.
-Removed the dome fuse to clear the code, put the fuse back in and got a code 42 again.
-Following instructions posted by @Bex, I tested for continuity at the EMS and on each wire leading into the CKP/CPS and all passed (meaning the sensor failed according to test flow)
-With all this in mind, I'd like to know if the CKP/CPS is what sends a signal for the coil to fire. If so, the issue should only be the CKP/CPS, not the coil, correct?
-My mechanic friend thinks the coil is faulty, but I'd like to be sure before dropping a large amount of money on parts that may not fix the issue. In addition, I'd have to buy an entire distributor if the ckp/cps is faulty.

The weirdest thing through all of this is that the car would start every time before the rotor cap and rotor were taken off. After that, it never started again and refuses to get spark. It seems odd that a ckp/cps sensor or coil would die at the exact same time the rotor was adjusted.

Any ideas?

 

[aquanaut20]

Now there is your first issue...
"-Following the information available on KickFix, I set the crank gear to TDC on #1 cylinder and the camshaft to TDC based on the #4 cylinder, aligned the rotor to 1PM and set the firing order per FixKick (1,3,4,2 in a counter-clockwise manner). "

The static CAM timing is set with # 4 @ TDC, the electric timing is set to #1 TDC and 5deg BTDC.. Firing order 1342..

 

[2013GV]

and when you get the cam / crank timing set correctly, make sure the rotor is on the correct way as well, the cheap ones can go in in any of 3 different positions, in which case you will never get the timing set right.

 

[djSL]

I guess I'm confused. The crank cog is set to 12 o'clock (#1 @tdc). The cam gear is set to tdc per the pictures available on fixkick. Everything appears to be aligned correctly.

That said, this leads me to a bigger question. If the timing is off, is spark killed completely on these cars? If so, that's a completely new phenomenon in comparison to any other vehicle I've owned.

 

[2013GV]

I guess I'm confused. The crank cog is set to 12 o'clock (#1 @tdc). The cam gear is set to tdc per the pictures available on fixkick. Everything appears to be aligned correctly.

That said, this leads me to a bigger question. If the timing is off, is spark killed completely on these cars? If so, that's a completely new phenomenon in comparison to any other vehicle I've owned.

You appear to have 2 issues, no spark and distributor is probably 180 degrees out.
Check connector to distributor and power supply to same. No power will kill spark and give a code 42 as the ecm isn't seeing the ignition / ckp signal.

Cam timing should be set crank #4 TDC, ignition timing is set crank #1 TDC.

Check rotor will only fit one way, aftermarket ones will go on in any of 3 positions. If you have one of these, throw the rotor away and get a decent one.

check for spark on coil lead, if no spark, get coil tested by auto electrician to confirm its ok, scope will determine if the crank signal is there assuming you have power and ground on correct wires at distributor. they do die, but it does seem like too much of a coincidence.
I'm picking you have a power supply to distributor issue along with timing set incorrectly.

 

[Bex]

Simply put, when your crank key is at 12:00, your cam key is at 6:00 and your cam mark at 12:00, you should be at cylinder #4 firing.
Your ignition timing is then done to #1 cylinder firing - if you have an aftermarket rotor which can go on 3 ways, you’ll notice 2 short ‘legs’ and one slightly longer one - it’s the longer one that points to #1.
Code 42 is what Suzuki calls the ‘crank angle sensor’, but it’s actually in the distributor.Is your distributor connection the 3 wired one or the 4 wired one? For example, on the 3 wired one, you have a white wire (the signal to the ECU), the blue/black one (12v through ignition switch on) and the black/green (ground).

 

[djSL]

Thanks for the quick feedback folks.

As @Bex stated, the crank key is at 12 and the cam key is at 6 with the cam mark at 12. Every image and post I've found indicates this is the proper method for setting static timing on a G16 16v (at least enough for the engine to fire).

My distributor has a three wire connector with the exact wire colors you've described. I found a post where you described an FSM like continuity check, and all wires passed.

I do have a cheap knockoff rotor which goes on three ways, and the car was running with one of these same style rotors before. However, I'll go buy a better one today if it simplifies this whole process.

 

[Bex]

You may also want to check your cam pulley - some of them have two marks on it, an E (or 60) mark and an I (or 80) maRFK. Our cars use the E mark and that’s what’s set to #1. I don’t get what you say above, about crank cog set to #1 TDC.....???? The mark on the cog is normally just above the keyway.

 

[djSL]

You may also want to check your cam pulley - some of them have two marks on it, an E (or 60) mark and an I (or 80) maRFK. Our cars use the E mark and that’s what’s set to #1. I don’t get what you say above, about crank cog set to #1 TDC.....???? The mark on the cog is normally just above the keyway.

As far as the cam gear goes, its's positioned like this photo:

.
With the cam gear in this position, the crank cog/gear key is positioned at 12 o'clock (like the photo below)

.

and the distributor rotor is positioned at 1 o'clock (as shown)


Hopefully, this is a bit more clear.

 

[Bex]

With the cam and crank set up as in your photos, if you are doing the valve timing, the distributor rotor should pointing to #4 - I believe that in the 16v rotor, the 1:00 position is pointing to the #1 wire

 

[2013GV]

easy fix, turn crank 1 full turn, then set ign timing to #1. Still doesn't account for no spark, have you actually checked for spark on the coil lead?

 

[djSL]

Interesting, I'll give that a shot.

Yes, I have physically checked for spark from the coil lead by attaching a plug wire and a spark plug. I'm not getting anything.

 

[2013GV]

Im assume spark plug and lead direct from the coil tower?
ok, so regardless of the fact the timing is probably 180 degrees out you now also have a no spark issue.

 

[Bex]

In re-reading all of this, I see that valve timing isn’t part of any discussion - so only ignition timing, and I suppose the hint is that the car did not start again after your friend ‘tore off’ the distributor cap and rotor. So it would seem logical that the problem lies there. Have you checked your rotor (aftermarket) rotor to see if you can actually fit it 3 different ways. Normally, the after markets are like that. I believe that the engine ‘should’ run with a code 42 - all that is supposed to happen in that case is that the ECU uses a pre-determined table for timing - but have you checked the blue/black wire to make sure that there’s 12v there?? Also, if you backprobe the white wire to ground, it should flash as your cranking the engine....????

 

[djSL]

Yes, @2013GV . Spark was tested directly from coil tower.

The rotor does fit three different ways and I have attempted to flip it 180 degrees with no luck.

@Bex I'm positive I tested those wires correctly, but who knows? Maybe I read the wrong FSM. I'm assuming this is what you're asking me to do:

-hook up test light to ground
-probe black/blue wire to verify if 12v is present (key on? key off?)

-hook up test light to ground
-back probe white wire (connector plugged into distributor) with test light and crank
-verify light flashes

Correct?

 

[2013GV]

correct , key on, otherwise you will have no power for any of these tests
hook light to ground, confirm power on bk/bu with key on, shift to white wire and crank, light should flash

 

[Bex]

Also the rotor has 3 ‘legs’ - how do you flip it 180? If you look at it, you will see 2 short legs and one slighty longer - it is the slightly longer one that points to the cylinder you’re testing for.

 

[djSL]

Unfortunately, the black/blue wire broke off when removing the distributor plug this time. So I cut it off, soldered on a new length of wire, and sealed it with Marine grade shrink tubing.

After testing, I have power to the black/blue wire and the white wire does nothing while cranking. However, connecting ground to the white wire via the test light activates several relays (I can hear them click).

According to an FSM page I found, the test states to apply battery positive and then back probe the white wire while cranking. I've attached the picture below.

Is this not correct?

As a side-note, it seems like every thing in this car is designed to be in your or to cut your hands .

 

[Bex]

Ok so 12v on the blue/black wire with the ignition on. For the white wire, the FSM test is to backprobe the white wire while cranking the engine (the white wire is the signal back to the ECU). One test light lead to the white wire, the other lead to ground. Your light should flash when you crank. If it doesn’t, check for an open in the white wire.

 

[Bex]

Edit - hmmm....my FSM seems to indicate otherwise, but could just be confusing to me. In any event, you are not getting the flashing light with the white wire connected to the test light. If you are able to identify what‘s clicking it would be interesting - do you hear it from the engine bay, or is this coming from under the dash?? I’d still look for that open in the white wire
Edit - at the ECU connector identification section in my book, it advises that with key on, that white wire itself has no voltage, but that the voltage changes from 0 to 12v, depending on the vehicle speed. The white wire is not the ground....???