Toyota Driveline Question - Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site
Suzuki Forum Suzuki Forums

» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
Wheel & Tire Center

Go Back   Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site > Suzuki Models > Suzuki Jimny, Sierra & Samurai Forum
Register Home Forum Active Topics Photo Gallery Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Auto EscrowAuto LoansInsurance Advertise

Suzuki-Forums.com is the premier Suzuki All Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-04-2016, 06:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 111
Gallery: 0
samuraijack is on a distinguished road
Garage
Default Toyota Driveline Question

I got the small flange samurai and want to go to a CV driveline for the rear.
I already have the Toyota adapter flange installed on my T-case and will order the adapter for the pinion side. What year of front Toyota driveline will work?
samuraijack is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-05-2016, 09:15 AM   #2 (permalink)
ack
Expert
 
ack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Independence, MO
Posts: 616
Gallery: 0
ack is on a distinguished road
Default

This information can be found with a search for toyota driveshaft at Ack's FAQ (see link in signature).

It is a lengthy, detailed post by rock4x4fab, who makes a set of toyota flange adapters, so trying to post the information would only increase Internet clutter and possibly introduce errors into the information.

I hope that this helps!
__________________
- Ack

Ack's FAQ
over 800 searchable links to the Samurai/TracKick
info that you are looking for!

'88 Samurai Offroader - HypnoToad
'88.5 Samurai Tintop Restoration Project - Bad CR
'14 Ford Transit Connect DD
ack is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-05-2016, 08:34 PM   #3 (permalink)
Expert
 
caseyjones955's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Black Hills of South Dakota
Posts: 683
Gallery: 0
caseyjones955 is on a distinguished road
Default

The Toyota adapter means you have Toyota differentials? I'm exhausted from work so forgive my cognitively impaired assumptions. This post assumes Toyota differentials so if I'm wrong disregard the following. I also assume by CV you are referring to Double Cardon (2 U joints at one end of the shaft). An actual CV joint is the style found on front wheel drive cars. A double cardon joint still varies speed as it rotates so is not truly a CV (constant velocity). I cant recall why but CV joints have been routinely condemned as pieces of shit within the off road community. The Porsche CV joints in my former 914 regularly ate 400hp and hard Camaro-eating launches so I'll have to brush up on why they are not used offroad and with compound angles.

Mine has Toyota differentials so here is my experience. The Toyota differential puts the pumpkin at an offset instead if lining up side to side perfectly with the xfer case output flange where the Sami diff lined up. This creates a compound driveline angle as not only do you have the angle up to the xfer case but you have an angle to the side. The Double Cardon created unbearable vibration at any angle, I later found out from the pros that the double cardon is not appropriate for a compound driveline angle in any application, but would work nicely if you still have Samurai diffs. I ended up with a single U joint on each end with the flanges set parallel, the FAQ mentioned above goes into detail about how to setup the angles IIRC. Double cardons are expensive so hopefully you dont have to learn the way I did.

As far as a shaft that fits, I had one made at a local driveline shop, I started with a 4 runner shaft and had it shortened and balanced with Spicer joints and a Toyota adapter at the xfer case. The appropriate length for your application will vary with your lift and suspension travel. I drive mine up to 75mph on the highway with very little vibration but I do have to hang new U joints in it every year as the sharp angle is rough and I drive it daily. Use cheap chinese joints and they might fail like candy. Spicers or OEM Toyota joints are your best bet that I'm aware of. If I assumed correctly that you have Toyota diffs and you want a pic of my setup let me know and I'll post it. I got guidance on the current setup from a guru at Trail Tough.

For reference I use Jeep YJ springs and missing links with 35" tires so I have a decent amount of lift. The other thing I did to reduce the compound angle (not eliminate it) was purchase a modified IFS diff, narrowed on one end to match the length of the pre-IFS truck, requiring a shortened axle shaft on one side and spring perches rewelded on to bolt right in place on the Sami. If I misstated something than feel free to shoot me down
__________________
87 Samurai ragtop, 16v 1.6L MPFI, Thorley header, 2.25" exh w/magnaflow cat & muffler, full custom dash & instruments, PS, AC, 410 Toyota axles w/rear lockrite and front ARB, Jeep YJ springs, Missing links, 6.4:1 xfer gears with twisted T conversion, early 5 speed, 35x12.5 Wranglers. .
caseyjones955 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2016, 08:05 AM   #4 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 111
Gallery: 0
samuraijack is on a distinguished road
Garage
Default

Your rig sounds awesome!

But I don't have anything Toyota on my Sammy. I pondered swapping to Toyota axles but with the reading of the pinion locations, it has slowly lost my interest.

I have the transfer case adapter installed that will accept a Toyota driveline. (It's has two sets of holes) and then stock pinion. I can get a driveline extension/adapter for that end though correct?

I currently am sprung over with 4" BDS springs and the rear/front pinions are both already angled up at the transfer case. With the stock samurai drivelines, I get a gnarly vibration from 1st to 2nd gear then eventually flattens out. This sucks bad when in the mountains where all I seem to use is 1st and 2nd! Haha

So in my case, I will need the Double Cardon style driveline to eliminate the vibrations. (Hopefully)

My overall question (which ACK's somewhat cleared up for me) was to find out if I can use a Toyota front driveline as the rear on my samurai, and if so, what year.

I have a good friend of mine who is willing to give me his old 1982 Toyota front driveline but I don't remember if it is a Double Cardon style. If it is, would it solve all my vibration problems?
samuraijack is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-06-2016, 09:33 AM   #5 (permalink)
Expert
 
caseyjones955's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Black Hills of South Dakota
Posts: 683
Gallery: 0
caseyjones955 is on a distinguished road
Default

It sounds like you could use a Toyota driveline with double cardon since you dont have a compound driveline angle. I was confused by the Toyota adapter mention.

A double cardon Toyota style shaft with the rear pinion aimed up at the xfer case output is a typical setup for lifted vehicles, I have done it a couple times on Broncos et al, with good success.

Other guys that have done this on Samurai before can correct me, but a Samurai has a stupid short rear shaft already, throw in a couple adapters and it gets shorter. The shorter it gets the more critical the driveline angle becomes increasing the potential for vibration and wear. If it were me I would take it to a driveline shop and see if they can do a double cardon without the adapters when you pay for the shorten/balance on your friends Toyota front shaft. My guess is you could have it shortened and throw it in with adapters and it would be fine but would love to have someone that has this setup confirm this, it's the shortest rear driveline I have ever worked with. Luckily a good driveline shop has done custom application shafts a million times and its fairly routine and affordable. They will want to know the distance between the flanges with the vehicle sitting on level ground on it's own weight to determine needed length, make sure you tell them about the adapters and their thickness. I'm not sure it will solve ALL the vibration problems but it should be plenty usable, probably smoother than mine which is still pretty good.

Another thing to consider is when you rotate the pumpkin to aim at the rear xfer case the pinion bearing is raised up out of the gear oil level, at least partially, and lubrication could be an issue. I know many folks overfill them to compensate but I'm not sure if this has been an issue on such a light differential.
__________________
87 Samurai ragtop, 16v 1.6L MPFI, Thorley header, 2.25" exh w/magnaflow cat & muffler, full custom dash & instruments, PS, AC, 410 Toyota axles w/rear lockrite and front ARB, Jeep YJ springs, Missing links, 6.4:1 xfer gears with twisted T conversion, early 5 speed, 35x12.5 Wranglers. .

Last edited by caseyjones955; 01-06-2016 at 09:38 AM.
caseyjones955 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-24-2016, 10:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 111
Gallery: 0
samuraijack is on a distinguished road
Garage
Default

So I ended up buying two adapters for the rear, the adapter at the front (t-case) went in fine with no issues, however.. the rear one was a PITA.. I was forced to remove the flange and wiggle off the little shield thing that surrounds the flange.

I was able to get it on and it eliminated 95% of my vibration!! But now I am running into axle wrap... how do I stop this?
samuraijack is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-24-2016, 11:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Georgetown, Guyana
Posts: 12,013
Gallery: 0
fordem will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caseyjones955 View Post
I also assume by CV you are referring to Double Cardon (2 U joints at one end of the shaft). An actual CV joint is the style found on front wheel drive cars. A double cardon joint still varies speed as it rotates so is not truly a CV (constant velocity).
I just noticed this, and I have to disagree.

I know that Wikipedia is not the most authoritative of sources, but the following quote was taken from their article on universal (or cardan) joints. I'm quoting it because, I happen to know, from personal experience, that it is correct.

Quote:
A double cardan joint consists of two universal joints mounted back to back with a center yoke; the center yoke replaces the intermediate shaft. Provided that the angle between the input shaft and center yoke is equal to the angle between the center yoke and the output shaft, the second cardan joint will cancel the velocity errors introduced by the first cardan joint and the aligned double cardan joint will act as a CV joint.
For double cardan joints to function as a constant velocity joint, both joints MUST be at the same angle.

For almost three decades I ran a front wheel drive Simca (French Chrysler) and the front drive shafts on that car had double cardan CVs as the outer joint - they were, in my experience, way more reliable than the "rzeppa" CVs that are commonly used today.

The reason double cardan CVs are no longer in common use is most likely physical size - a double cardan CV, with the "centering yoke" required to maintain equal angles is two to three times longer than a rzeppa joint. It also requires more clearance space behind the wheel when the wheel is turned at an angle.

Back to the "spring wrap" - is the vehicle spring under or spring over?
__________________
98 - 1.8 Mitsubishi Pajero iO
98 - 2.0 Suzuki Grand Vitara - SQ420
05 - 2.0 Suzuki Grand Vitara - JB420
15 - 2.4 Kia Sportage
fordem is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-24-2016, 12:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 111
Gallery: 0
samuraijack is on a distinguished road
Garage
Default

That's a lot
Of good information..


It is SPOA with new BDS 4" leafs
samuraijack is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-24-2016, 12:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Georgetown, Guyana
Posts: 12,013
Gallery: 0
fordem will become famous soon enough
Default

Google anti-wrap bar - there are a bunch of different ways to do it, and at least one kit (from SpiderTrax), you might want to get an axle truss whilst you're about it.
__________________
98 - 1.8 Mitsubishi Pajero iO
98 - 2.0 Suzuki Grand Vitara - SQ420
05 - 2.0 Suzuki Grand Vitara - JB420
15 - 2.4 Kia Sportage
fordem is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site > Suzuki Models > Suzuki Jimny, Sierra & Samurai Forum

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:05 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.