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Old 02-26-2013, 05:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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It looks like all 1.6L Suzy engines have the same firing order in 1996, so that means that the timing is likely off. My plan for tomorrow is to pull the radiator and accessories so that I can look at the cam/crank timing. Once that is confirmed, I'll rotate the engine to TDC on the #1 cyl (indicated by the timing cover mark), which is 0. At this point, all the valves on the #1 cyl should be loose, and the rotor Should be pointing to the #1 pole. Correct?

Looking over the vast help from the kick-fix site, it appears that my Geo is timed to the 11 o'clock position on the distributor (as indicated by #1 cyl plug wire connected at the 11 o'clock pole). The PO, or his mechanic, must have been looking at the wrong information when the newer engine was installed. Does any of this make sense, or am I off my rocker?
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthedirt View Post
Evidence of different firing order. 10 and 1 o'clock both have white marks painted:
notice how far the distributor is rotated in the base clamp?
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It is possible that the PO set up the timing belt wrong, using the false marks, perhaps, and perhaps timing it to cylinder #1, and then could only get it to fire by being creative at the distributor. You'll know more when you look at the timing belt. Let us know what you find. The timing belt is timed to cylinder #4 firing. The crank key is at 12:00 and the cam key is at 6:00 with the cam mark at 12:00 You will be using the E marks on the cam pulley. There are false marks on the cam pulley for the DOHC engine (normally I or 80C marks) You will be using the E or 60A mark on the cam pulley.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'll have all morning and afternoon for this, so I'll report back my findings. Thanks for the help.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Sorry, one last question. Knowing that I have purchased a rotor that can fit on 3 ways, how does one know which is the "right" way in my situation? This was the only rotor available to me locally, so I'll search for the correct one. In the meantime, however, how would I know which is the correct position when my distributor timing is already jacked?
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:36 AM   #16 (permalink)
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You don't. You get the proper rotor that can only fit on one way, and stay away from cheap Chinese knockoffs!!
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:55 AM   #17 (permalink)
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UPDATE:

Had a chance to tear down the front end. After removing the radiator, shroud, and fan, I was able to get to the timing belt cover and rotate the crank. Belt looks brand new, so someone has been in there recently. Not even a speck of dirt on it. I got a six-point alignment on the notches, indicating that the cam and crank are in alignment. For reassurance, I also checked the torque on the crank nut at 95 lbs. Rotating the crank to TDC on the #1 cyl, I confirmed my initial suspicions. The PO had timed the distributor to the wrong cyl (#3). So, I pulled the distributor out and timed it to #1. I put the radiator and accessory drives back in place, and prepped it to fire.

RESULTS:

Although improved, it still has issues. First off, the car won't run when timed exactly on #1. It likes to be 1 tooth advanced. This means that I have to try and retard the dynamic timing as much as possible (12 degrees BTDC). I tried to install the distributor 1 tooth retarded, but then I couldn't advance the dynamic timing enough. So, I left it one tooth advanced and figured I'd live with it for now. The p0300 and hesitation is still there, but not nearly as pronounced. For the record, I did jump pole 4 & 5 when checking timing with the light.

Conclusion:

Your guess is as good as mine. I know that it won't pass inspection right now, but hopefully, I don't have to be inspected until next year! I'm thinking that I may have to try a different alternator. At a minimum, I will attempt to locate a "quality" cap and rotor. I'm not sure if I bought a Chinese POS or not. Which brands are recommended?
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:37 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Did you confirm that the belt is timed to the proper marks? There are two sets of marks on the cam pulley, one of which is for a different engine - a false keyway and a false mark that should not be used.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:47 AM   #19 (permalink)
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first off my web page covers all that. even 6 photos of 96. and no the 3 engines are not the same (6 in EU) where are you USA or canada >?
correct your statement pointing to TDC #1 firing is 100% perfect ! great !
the haynes,/cliltons and GM books get the rotor direction wrong, its CCW.
i cover 4 generations ? of spark

off the home page is my CRAP rotor saviour page
here
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16v-rotor-IGN1.JPG
the rest is here. ( i have every way to un mess up a dizzy, here.) all ways!
16v
How to set ignition timing


see the 4 generation of spark 3 for 1.6L and many more 1.8L up. 1.8L has no dizzy.
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/index.html
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:08 AM   #20 (permalink)
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first of GREAT post , one of the best ever, full disclosure of a complex issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthedirt View Post
UPDATE:

Had a chance to tear down the front end. After removing the radiator, shroud, and fan, I was able to get to the timing belt cover and rotate the crank. Belt looks brand new, so someone has been in there recently. Not even a speck of dirt on it. (most are, its covered)
I got a six-point alignment on the notches, indicating that the cam and crank are in alignment. fantastic
6 points, i see you read my acid test page. good, the 7th point
is the pulley mark, some pulleys (crank) slip (rubber inside , want 2 in my attic? caused by mad PO's and too tight accessory belts, 100lbs tension bs)
if the pulley TDC really is TDC (v rim mark) then all io good. IS IT? there are only 2 ways top validate it, 3 head off, head off way is dead nuts way with dial indicator..


For reassurance, I also checked the torque on the crank nut at 95 lbs. Rotating the crank to TDC on the #1 cyl, I confirmed my initial suspicions. The PO had timed the distributor to the wrong cyl (#3).
it will run perfect all 4 ways, but using factory 1pm way makes following the
book steps work, as you may know the books may state, turn crank
till rotor lands at 1pm. and all is lost after............ sadly. (the PRIM ROSe way to hell for many)


So, I pulled the distributor out and timed it to #1. I do too.
I put the radiator and accessory drives back in place, and prepped it to fire.

RESULTS:

Although improved, it still has issues. MPI is complex with 4 injectors.

First off, the car won't run when timed exactly on #1.
stalls? or wont start? i wish i know what you ment here... this is very critical.

It likes to be 1 DIZZY ? tooth advanced. (dizzy gear (base spiral tooth?)

This means that I have to try and retard the dynamic timing as much as possible (12 degrees BTDC).


(no that is advances, before = advance.
to left on scale is advance so 20|||||0 so 20 is 20 degrees before advanced (crank turns CW facing rear so advanced is before 0.)
dizzy, that means the static is now set to 12BTDC. (if pulley not stripped)

what i do is paint a stripe from cog TDC to v notch on rim. during the belt
swap and behold, OMG the freaking pulley is stripped. i never trust any damper pulley made not me.. i validate them on all cars. taken down or
my PISTON TDC tool shows me ITS WRONG.
ask for tool source all shops need one,,, a plastic straw finds the horrid bad TDCs but not off by 3 or 4 degrees that takes, TOOLS.
[/COLOR]
I tried to install the distributor 1 tooth retarded,

but then I couldn't advance the dynamic timing enough. (ok you hit the dizzy screw clamp base slot, got you,,, ok,..... , wrong rotor or bad damper pulley)
YOU CAN NOT SET DYNAMIC THE IS THE PROVENCE OF ECU !!
you set static and the ECU adds to it. see? 5BTDC walks out t 42deg BTDC (under hood is the dizzy spec ., look up)
on mine so if i set static to 12 as you did that walks to (math)
12-5) 7 + 42 or 49degrees total advance, the ECU does no know you lied to it and mindlessly sets timing to 49 and now the motor pings. BAD ! (not bad if pulley is wrong)
the Suz, rotor will not ever install 120degr or 240 degrees off, see my page for why


So, I left it one tooth advanced and figured I'd live with it for now.
The p0300 and hesitation is still there, but not nearly as pronounced. ( the ECU never lies about 300s, do you the misfire? unless the Tbelt flops. or crank/cam keys sheared) In fact 300s means, "THE CAM/crank are jettering, why is that?" or it can mean , belt good, that the cylinders are weak at random times, aka Misfire.
For the record, I did jump pole 4 & 5 when checking timing with the light.

Conclusion:

Your guess is as good as mine. I know that it won't pass inspection right now, but hopefully, I don't have to be inspected until next year! (why does inspections matter? why not burn all fuel bought)
I'm thinking that I may have to try a different alternator. (why?)
At a minimum, I will attempt to locate a "quality" cap and rotor. Bosch sells parts that fit and last, a rotor is $5
I'm not sure if I bought a Chinese POS or not. Which brands are recommended? my timing page tells you that in the 2nd paragraph.
NGK , Bosch,,,,,,, in order too....
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/index.html

I agree, your timing SUCKS !! THERE is A seriouS PROBLEM, LETS FIX IT.

SEEMS TDC IS OF BY 10 DEGREES RETARDED SO YOU MUST ADVANCE BY 10, OR MORE.?
my guess is that the true TDC is retarded some how, and hot idle may be tool low?
my guess is that its so bad that the classic straw test , finds it for free. i bet.
you never said (it stalls or wont start so cant be more accurate) but if it fails to start, your timing is way off (fueling ok, compression 170+)
OR !!!
point to ponder, you do know, that a rich flooding motor LOVES huge advance, right? (longer time it takes to burn rich , yes)
so if flooding and you think that is bad timing , you are wrong. (can be , see why?)_
it's not your fault, that, if the pulley marks are validated, then rich is just that rich. fix rich. (proper timing takes great effort on old cars, assumptions fail)
OR !!
as you do know timing way off causes rich (retarded) yes retarding greatly causes HUGE rich burning.
so the marks are the GOD of timing and diagnosis, yes all 7 marks. sorry

LAST if the belt is tight (spec, not actual over tight) then The ECU is telling the truth, see? it IS MISFIRING.

you sound like a man in great need of a real TDC tool, they are cheap. ask.



300s are
random misfire.
vast reasons but in macro form , (read my huge misfire page, long)
1: bad spark
2: weak compression
3: loose timing belt , that is right, the belt can jitter and if it does false 300s.
4: lean AFR. misfire. (and bogging , and power loss)
5: horrid rich AFR misfire ( black spark tips , bad violent shaking of engine +++)
all reasons. EFI and Engine are complex
6: tbelt bouncing?
My engine is misfiring

Last edited by xxx; 03-01-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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