code 51, 4th exhaust path - Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site
Suzuki Forum Suzuki Forums

» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
Wheel & Tire Center

Go Back   Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site > Suzuki Models > Suzuki Sidekick, Escudo, Vitara & Geo Tracker Forum (1989-1998)
Register Home Forum Active Topics Photo Gallery Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Auto EscrowAuto LoansInsurance

Suzuki-Forums.com is the premier Suzuki Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-17-2012, 08:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 143
Gallery: 0
Swansen is on a distinguished road
Default code 51, 4th exhaust path

Small backstory, battery blew up and shorted the ecu, tested harness, nothing came up wrong, only issue was temp sender is shorted, resistive values are all screwed up, way to high, new ECU and highway milage went from 33 to anything under the sun. Jumped all around, 20-28, but never back up where it was. After about 2000 miles with new ECU, and as the weather got colder, code 51 tripped. Also, old ecu had caps replaced, if that matters.

Anyhow, did eveything else, stall test passes, EGR temp probe,(coolant temp sensor), exhaust has no leaks. vsv and mod valve test ok also. So, unless there is some other sensor complication, some other malfunction, i'm guessing that 4th exhaust port is the culprit.

About a year ago i cleaned out everything really well when the code came up and it wasn't even horribly gummed then(90 degree port at intake was only clogged area). However, i wasn't to thorough with the exhaust passage round the back of the head and all that jazz, as well the donut gasket, manifold to down tube, that might not be sealed perfectly, but, there are no visible leaks, just a little exhaust buildup. So, anything to look for when doing going through that port? planning on taking off the manifold, or any sensor i should check out also? thanks.
__________________
95 tracker 1.6 16v 4x4 2dr 5spd 139k manual hubs.
Swansen is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-18-2012, 07:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
Veteran
 
ranger88den's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,698
Gallery: 0
ranger88den is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

O2 sensor may be getting false sampling from exhaust leaks causing bad mileage. This thread may be relevant regarding EGR:

1.6L 16v troubleshooting
__________________
1997 Geo Tracker, 2dr convertible/hardtop, 1.6, 16v, 5 spd manual, 4wd
1995 Geo Tracker, 2dr convertible/hardtop, 1.6, 16v, 3 spd auto, 4wd
1992 Geo Tracker LSI, 2 dr convertible, 1.6, 8v, 5 spd manual, 4wd
1991 Geo Tracker, 2dr hardtop (TT), 1.6, 8v, 3 spd auto, 4wd

1989 Ford E-250, van, 5.0 (302), 4 spd auto
1988 Ford Ranger, p/u, 2.9, 3pd auto
ranger88den is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2012, 04:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 143
Gallery: 0
Swansen is on a distinguished road
Default

yes, thank you so much for that link, 10k resistor did the trick, no more check light. Also.. the resistive value was off by like 10-20ohms from what it was suppose to be reading, but, i hadn't checked it off the vehicle yet, but apparently i was missing something. SO, if the EGR valve wasn't getting hot enough than it makes complete sense that there is blockage somehwhere and most likely the 4th exhaust port was culprit.

Yeah, thats possible, i can borrow a scope and check out the functionality of the O2 sensor. My guess, or, what it seemed like, via fading power, sputtering idle, other various signs of limpmode engaged, was that the 51 code was sending it into limpmode, or latent limpmode via that EGRT not reporting what was expecting but not enough to trip a light. right now i'm having a hard time telling if its still in limp mode or not.. i can't tell if i'm inventing fake symptoms or if they are actually their. will find out soon though. thanks for the help ether way.
__________________
95 tracker 1.6 16v 4x4 2dr 5spd 139k manual hubs.
Swansen is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2012, 05:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
xxx
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,101
Gallery: 0
xxx is on a distinguished road
Default

only deal hiding the error with the resistor fix , is it might be real.
if it sticks open for any reason. it will run bad
so clean the egr main and defeat it by pulling its vacuum line and blocking the line with a golf tee.... no drive , drive funny, then its spark related or lean or rich.
the 95 holds closed loop at idle and cruise.
if not it will load up. or or do lean misfiring if you have other issues.
2 problems.

yes limphome
late timing, wont advance fully
rich
closed loop canceled.
and rpm limp
loss of power, like 1/2/

there are many ways to monitor a 02 sensor, and a scope works best.

btw i started that post.
back in 2008 (and here back then)
the ecu treats the thermo probe funny.
it DOES not do a double check, valve closed then open
it just blindly checks the temp at cruise and if at spec. passes.
pathetically easy to fool. ( dont you love it>?)
if they checked it cold , they;d have caught you....

is your only symptoms , just MPG? not power loss.?
no bogging , no flat spots.?
full power, up hills and WOT up hills.?
and light loads, up hills, not WOT say 1/2 throttle?
the ecu goes rich at WOT and cuts the 02?
so knowing that ,can be a big clue.... to whats going on.?

is the ECT reading 180F min>?
is the maf clean (crc maf cleaner) and showing readings off my MAF page.? good?
there must not be air leaks from the MAF too the Intake valves
if there is too much leaking the EFI cant keep up. and goes to limphome. (usually at low speeds and loads, .)
or just drops closed loop.

follow the train of closed loop and it will send you to the answer,


Quote:
the thermo probe spec is of my EGR page as you and see 10k is nice and toasty.

What Kicks have the #36 dwg #1 California EGR thermo probe aka: EGRT.?
Data Points for the EGRT: source Pg, 6E99 FSM. ( has a graph plot and test procedure)
212 F. = 11.2 to 13.6k ohms or about 12,400 ohms ( boil it in water , measure the resistance with any ohm meter)
140 F = 42.1-55.5k ohms.
68 F = 214-313.8k ohms (typical room temperature reading)

Last edited by xxx; 11-18-2012 at 05:34 PM.
xxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2012, 05:53 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior
 
Dayton86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Northwest MS
Posts: 177
Gallery: 0
Dayton86 is on a distinguished road
Default

I recently went through this about 9 months ago. My biggest issue was I didn't realize that you should be able to see the valve insides from where the temp probe goes. Mine was so packed full I never knew it was supposed to go through. I only learned this after I bought a new one and was comparing the two. May just want to check that and good luck.
__________________
1994 Sidekick JX 1.6-8v-5speed-4x4-2dr-FED Emission 230k miles and counting!


Ted Nugent, "Conversely, gun control a la Ted Nugent is putting the second shot through the same hole as the first shot, where innocent lives are saved and recidivistic maggots come to a screeching halt, felled by the lovely ballet of good over evil we call the "Double Tap Center Mass Boogie." Learn it, know it, love it, shoot it. Good guys should live, bad guys, not so much."
Dayton86 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2012, 07:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
xxx
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,101
Gallery: 0
xxx is on a distinguished road
Default

i have the full slide show of the parts on line, end to end
EGR, just put EGR in the search box and it finds it pronto.
ok here.

its off my egr gen 2 and 3 pages , one of the worst here. and a 95 can be far worse with the quad ports hidden in the intake.

http://kickfix.ac-vw.com/sensors/EGR...tml/index.html

Last edited by xxx; 11-18-2012 at 08:37 PM.
xxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2012, 05:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 143
Gallery: 0
Swansen is on a distinguished road
Default

Dayton thanks for the tip, maybe i'll have some luck with that temp probe coming off and i'll shine a light down there and see what i can see. if inconclusive i'll take it off. cleaned everything a year ago... but, maybe not a well as i thought.

Yeah, im thinking its stuck open, but, i was in the understanding that the EGR is default open and the VSV closes it upon start-up? no? so wouldn't disconnecting vaccum from the MOD valve(main vaccum) just keep it open? (of which i already tried this, and didn't help anything). On that, does that VSV check anything? Would it report errors?? as in vacuum pressure coming from the mod valve etc? Also, if the EGR was plugged shut, then it should be same as having no vacuum applied/always closed?

and xxx, thanks, i was trying to find that, so, i was right in thinking the only check for the EGR system is that EGRT... hmm... seems like i'm having some compound issue then.. and there is no light reporting anyting.. YES!! its always way more fun this way...

yeah, horrible mileage, like 18 right now, not really noticing anything otherwise however, intermittent stumble on idle.

(was getting 33hwy, then this issue http://www.suzuki-forums.com/suzuki-...gauge-max.html, and then started jumping all over the place, but never better than 28hwy after replacing ecu(was traveling, all highway miles), and now here i am.)(and after reading over that thread again, i never checked the red/blue o2 circuit again to see if i was still getting input there or not..(or maybe i did, i dunno, was hectic period, never in one place for long..)

thanks for the direction guys, i'll poke around and get back(and apparently i'm not getting email notifications anymore(yes subscribed), so, i didn't realize i had replies.)
__________________
95 tracker 1.6 16v 4x4 2dr 5spd 139k manual hubs.
Swansen is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2012, 06:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
xxx
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,101
Gallery: 0
xxx is on a distinguished road
Default

95 Tracker 1.6 16v 4x4 2dr 5spd 100k manual hubs


Quote:
Originally Posted by Swansen View Post
Dayton thanks for the tip, maybe i'll have some luck with that temp probe coming off (Do not remove it, they usually break)

and i'll shine a light down there and see what i can see.
ah, clean it, dont gander at it, clean the bugger. clean as MR. CLEAN.

if inconclusive i'll take it off. cleaned everything a year ago... but, maybe not a well as i thought. (id fix EGR last, I sure would) read on.

Yeah, im thinking its stuck open, (if it was the idle speed would be 400 rpm
or stall,. is it?


but, i was in the understanding that the EGR is default open NO and the VSV closes NO, it? upon start-up? this is not true.
the truth of it.....................
key off, THE is opened. (no power = OPEN) it not running yet,.
key on, started, the ecu closes the VSV by the application of 12vdc.
running it opens (in 96+ car must be moving, not your's)

the egr main is spring loaded closed, until acted upon by VACUUM.
The EGR main gets MORE vacuum under increased engine LOAD.
Quote:
so wouldn't disconnecting vacuum from the MOD valve(main vaccum) just keep it open? keep what open,
the vacuum from the TB does all the work. (ported)
the VSV is only there for the ECU to enable EGR, not wideopenthrottle and
not idle. off idle the ECU commands the VSV open (drops 12v power to it)
and then the ported vacuum reaches the MOD, the mod valve only
purpose is to , modulate, said vacuum, to the spring closed EGR main. (it opens more under more load)
the exhuast putts, on the bottom of MOD , does that Modulation action. (its only purpose)


(of which i already tried this, and didn't help anything (MPG?). On that, does that VSV check anything?
the vsv does not check anything only 96+ has VSV2 check valve yours does not.

Would it (what is it?) report errors?? as in vacuum pressure coming from the mod valve etc? (NO !)
this car has no vacuum senors, for any EGR. only the thermoprobe device. 92 is different, 96 is different, 95 is different.

CODE 51s are brutally and blissfully stupid. it waits for cruise.
and then looks that thermprobe temperature, if good , then the test ends.
till next driving cycle.
you can put in a 10,000 resistor there, and it will pass for eternity.



Also, if the EGR was plugged shut, then it should be same as having no vacuum applied/always closed?
that is correct. if you weld it shut the EGR thermprobe stays cold and fails 51 fail ever driving cycle. (if you drive right)

and xxx, thanks, your welcome..
i was trying to find that, so, i was right in thinking the only check for the EGR system is that EGRT... hmm..
yes the EGRt is a thermistor thermoprobe , <it is the only feed back to ecu.

. seems like i'm having some compound issue then.. and there is no light reporting anything.. what light?
The EGR test in 95 is very very simple.
in 96 not so. (they added a EGR MAP and new CHECK valve and 2 tests)
do not read 96+ propaganda ,, its not your car,
in 92 -95 many 16v have the thermoprobe, (calif was first year, then became standard.)
some 92s dont have a problem the first 16v had a egr mod.
it is odd the history, a EGR map then no map just a probe then in 96 back
to a map. (very odd)

YES!! its always way more fun this way...

yeah, horrible mileage, like 18 right now, not really noticing anything otherwise however, intermittent stumble on idle.
its sick , with not scan tool , its a battle, see why,?

(was getting 33hwy, then this issue http://www.suzuki-forums.com/suzuki-...gauge-max.html, and then started jumping all over the place, but never better than 28hwy after replacing ecu(was traveling, all highway miles), and now here i am.) 28 is par. all 3 of mine did 28. (best driving)


(and after reading over that thread again, i never checked the red/blue o2 circuit again to see if i was still getting input there or not..(or maybe i did, i dunno, was hectic period, never in one place for long..)

thanks for the direction guys, i'll poke around and get back(and apparently i'm not getting email notifications anymore(yes subscribed), so, i didn't realize i had replies.)
your email service is pushing your warnings in the spam.. look there bingo.

ok on a 95 and not scanner
1: get the egr , main to close, 100%, then defeat it. (clean so that can happen)
pull the vac line lose to EGR main. and plug it on the vac side. level main nipple naked.
now the EGR is out of the picture.
then get the motor in to closed loop at it, then at cruise.
then 28mpg happens like magic.

if i had a 1995, id get the scan tool $90 + ship, but if too expensive
SDL interface

try the 02 meter, there is kit for $20 .

if you hook up any dmm to the 02, you will just see changing values.
perplexing. AC in to most DC meters.
if you use a quality meter it will show, min, max and average.
this will work.

here is what you cant see, idling and driving./



id bet this is failing... on your car. (huge list for way.)
from vacuum to exh. leaks to leaking injector to clogged injectors
to thermostat not holding 180F, and ECT bad, etc.

closed loop in action B1S1, 02.

Last edited by xxx; 12-11-2012 at 06:34 PM.
xxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2012, 06:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
xxx
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,101
Gallery: 0
xxx is on a distinguished road
Default

the 95 has very few diagnostics like 96
the 95 can not even report , o2 heaters bad.
13s and 52's are rare, and insensitive.

make sure the 02 is working, make sure the heater actually heats.
the injectors.
make sure they pass the leak down test on my pump page
make sure the 3 tests for the injector pass on my injector page (balance)
no inake leaks.
no exh leaks near the o2
water temp reaches and holds at 180F.

that rough idle, is idle misfire.
if because of too rich, the sparks turn black, do all 4 turn black, no, just 1, well
the injector leaks, or compression is low, or bad spark to that jug.

as you see , it's not in closed loop, i bet, at idle, and misfires.
this is the 1 clue and path to the solution. see why?

symptoms, horrid, mpg, worse than my v6 pig, infact.
misfire at idle.
block the EGR, and find out if its rich, and not in closed loop
and we can work that to its logical conclusion...


if you get to thinking the 51s are dropping the ECU to limp home then put in the 10,000 resistor and defeat the EGR, and see it stop that.
i dont think 95 do that limp thing , on 51.

Last edited by xxx; 12-11-2012 at 06:44 PM.
xxx is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2012, 08:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 143
Gallery: 0
Swansen is on a distinguished road
Default

thank you very much xxx that all helps my addled brain(for other reasons) a whole lot right now and sorting through this logically will be easier.

yeah, low idle, 500rpms

i have a nice Fluke auto-ranging meter, should get me something

yes, removed vacuum from EGR, didn't help mileage(hmm.... maybe i'm inventing that though, i've been spoiled by my 33mpg hwy travels.. if i remember correctly, a year ago i think i was averaging 25-26) 50/50 city/hwy and i think last tank was around that..

remember testing the ECT when the battery ate it, restive value was correct(may have been off by 10-20ohms, its been a few months)

and found how to test O2 with DMM http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-...en-sensor.html http://www.clubsub.org.nz/forum/inde...ic,7041.0.html

ok, will look around, check everything and get back. thanks again

story time past jargon -->it seems any failure mode(check light, sensor failure) produces limpmode on my vehicle, this is a definite for code 51. in the past had slight passage clogging and check light jumped on and off(EGRT heating up after a good drive) and had poor gas mileage while diagnosing, during intermittent check light(and other limp issues, power loss and then 'boost mode'), as well as for ECT failure, and thermostat failure stuck open, in the past(but i also had some one replace the caps on my ECU with caps with improper characteristics.. and for whatever reason it took about a year to start reporting an error via that..(maybe why it produced limpmode in past, hadn't considered that til now.) <---past jargon
__________________
95 tracker 1.6 16v 4x4 2dr 5spd 139k manual hubs.

Last edited by Swansen; 12-11-2012 at 09:34 PM.
Swansen is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site > Suzuki Models > Suzuki Sidekick, Escudo, Vitara & Geo Tracker Forum (1989-1998)

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.3.2
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.