Ok Guys,
Got my kick back from the dealer...what a waste of time and to top it off he asked if I was going to "part it out". ( conflicts of interest !! fraud)
That made me mad...if not extremely angry after them not knowing what or how to fix it. anyways... (id send a letter to the manager)
It has been raining (Saturday) all day here in Los Angeles.
no way does it rain there, really?
So not much work but I did do these things. Im in the driveway..no cover.
First, paper clipped the connector...ah ha...turned the key and it flashes code "12" and keeps repeating it. I believe this is a good sign?
yes, means the ECU has power and its retarded brain thinks all is well.
Sunday I will try it again and do the cranking and see if it changes? I have paperwork from kick fix site to further check it. What i did notice when I cranked it before installing the paperclip is that the tach does not seem to move. It should, right? YES !
the tach runs off the spark driver side. yes.
Lost spark driver ,kills the tacho... sure.
sadly you failed to crank motor for 10seconds. with the diag.jumper
placed, so we wait.-
XXX: I will go thru the crank no start page...just need good weather. Also, noticed that the gas gauge seems to read the amount of fuel in it whether the key is on or not.
its not a electric gage is thermal /electric, (1920s like)
it freezes when you key off. some can.
Is this ok? Is this normal for a Sidekick? (normal)
After the fuel pump install..i put about 8 gallons in it. it reads correctly but i would think the fuel needle would go down after turning the vehicle off.? (is see you drive new cars and many new cars have real
instrument meters. that return to zero. your car is not new its 1920s style. take a bad speedo head off and look at whats inside,
flash back to 1920 henry ford. bingo. see end for types.
I also changed all the spark plugs (NGK copper core). Should have done that from the beginning. The plugs i pulled out were BAD and worn and gapped double the amount.
as always, forever, and ever, runs bad do a tune up.....
I have on order a new set of wires. I will check all individually for spark tomorrow. I took off the distributor cap...looks brand new..good quality. all stores here, sell the bosch set, just buy a set. ?
ask NAPA, and some stored, can get them in a few hours.
or tell you , yes, they are in our 1st street store..... no need to order.
so you can see internal carbon tracking in the cap and rotor.
and you want to find out the hard way (grief to the max, wasted time,etc? why not tune it up. right.?)
So tomorrow:
1) check each plugs..for spark
2) Check codes again (steady, while cranking, etc) But I do have "12" repeating right now.
(thats only the boot code and no static sensor fails)
3) Sneek Peek timing belt...again have the sneak peek from kick fix. Im curious if this is aligned up. I have a timing light..needs to run first though. (if the belt slips the IGN timing goes way off ,if way off
do not set IGN timing, do the sneak-a-peak, bingo belt is slipped
and compresson is 90 PSI or worse not 170.
cam first, the dizzy never the reverse.
4) FUEL PRESSURE...I needed a connector to connect to the fuel filter>>got it now..I will check.
5) Back probe Fuel injector. Will do it right this time. Yes XXX, what a shame that it shares the same harness with the TPS. I would like to change it someday. (if the ecu sees a high signal on the TP pin
it cuts fuel. all i can say , dont let it>)
all fuses have been checked and the fuses near the battery. I checked the problem grounds. I dont think this car has any wiring problems..plus it is pretty dry out here..
again, the order counts, or you spend forever.
(do the tune up, this goes with out saying. and you proved my point
with those horrible spark plugs in the motor. )
cap,rotor, wires, and spark plugs at .028"
no code 41/42, cranking
no any other codes but 12s, key on or cranking or running....
check spark fails at coil? bad ECU, coil, or ignitor.
the ECU cuts fuel with bad spark going past this point is a waste of time. see?
so fix spark now.
ok spark is now good.
i check timing its way off, the sneak a peak shows a bad belt.
so the PO skips tuneups, and the 60k mile belt change 10000 posts here for the sorry play.
fix the belt , the check #1 firing timing. with the timing freeze jumper planted. ok i got spark , ok it runs on test fuel now. cool
now we work the fueling and EFI side.
1 step at at time, go backwards and waste huge labor and parts.
1 good motor
2 good spark
3 good fueling. those are the correct order,
Fuel gauges
there are many kinds
1: just a volt meter d'arsonval meter with a F > |>>E scale. and the ECU sends volts for fuel level. (ecu has sender as input and then drives the gauge all buy its self, scaled, right.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanometer
2: a digital fuel gauge, works like above.
4: a mag balanced gauge, (loves to stick center off)>>> see this. http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/fg_05.htm
5: a pure thermal gauge (Henry ford like) that has heating coil and a bi metal spring, and the need move by action of the spring. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-gauge1.htm
best plan is to ignore, key off ops, if the gauge works at all , be happy.
i for one have never disemboweled all 10 years of fuel gauges, mostly because they work, (sender fails what 50:1) and if id did , id surely break, it.. they are delicate. to the extreme. VSS? , now that one ,ive done lots.
Ok Guys,
It was a wrenching sunday...but a much better one!?
First, I paperclipped again...CEL flashes "12" steady or cranking. No other codes. After that as I said before I was concerned about the dizzy rotor cap possibly being put on wrong. I made sure it was on right. Then I read the kick fix how to time the dizzy. Lo and behold the PO must have put on the wires incorrectly! I could not believe it! The wires were routed wrong! Ok..So I use the liquid paper to "paint the dizzy cap" and get the wires correctly installed. Then the sneek peek. Cam belt is good. It has not slipped. It is a GATES brand..could this be original or did Suzuki use a different brand (OEM). It looks good...like it may have been replaced before. I would like to replace it later though. I did what the kick fix said and it all aligned up when I checked! Perfect! So I put the cam cover bolts back on. Asked my wife for some help here. I had her just turn the key...I wanted to feel the fuel pressure on the line right before the fuel regulator. When she turn the key I felt the Pressure...it is strong. Next, I checked the spark for each spark plug...each is good. Ok, I think I am getting somewhere. I had already removed the air filter and tube...gonna try some starting fluid again. I asked my wife to crank and lo and behold...It started and sounded really good but then died. If you guys remember from my original post i said it "kinda" ran on starting fuel. IT DEFINETLY will RUN on starting fuel now and IT sounds Good. I shot some more starting fluid and when i cranked it and it started the TACH moved up like it is supposed to. And as it started I was almost able to kinda rev up and down ..but then it died. Starting fuel ran out. XXX: could the fact that i revved it up and down give me the impression that the TPS might be okay? Wow..My wife was so excited to see and hear it run for a few seconds..me too! Although..the tach only comes up when the motor runs for a few seconds on starting fuel...When I crank..it does not to appear to move much.
Ok, I did not have enough time to check the other things but I will. When I realized that the wires were incorrect I thought that this is definetly the problem. For sure I would have never been able to get it this far had I not seen the problem thru the guidance of you guys and the kickfix pages. I have new wires, rotor and cap coming from NAPA on monday. These will not solve my problem...I know this..But i need to replace them anyways. So..XXX...I would believe at this point the ECU is probably OK and my spark is good. Cam belt is ok and wires wired correctly.
So Guys...Im thinking this is the next plan of attack:
1) Check fuel pressure.
2) Now Back probe that injector with the noid light (correctly this time). I ran out of daylight today..but man..those connections seem difficult to back up and remove so that I can then pull back the tiny little rubber seals and then backprobe it. Any thoughts on this? I almost what to solder up an intermediate 6 wire temp harness so i can "back Probe" or "tap into" the connection for the noid light. Again, any more thoughts on this.
3) Remove the air horn and look down and turn key and visually look..any gas going down there??
4) I hear two clicks under the dash...I have not tried swapping out the fuel pump relays. Should I?
5) Check volts at TSP connector per XXX (before).
Ok, XXX, basically...looks like I'm going back to this: (I copied and pasted this from before):
i will map you out now
i crank and look down air horn, NO fuel, my pressure is at 32psi.
i check the TPS for 2vdc on the TP pin (wiper pin)
its 2v. the TPS is not signally WOT, good,
WOT cuts fuel cranking , its a FEATURE of all ECUs. made.
my tachometer shows needle hit 200 or 300 rpm cranking, a strong battery for sure.
i attach the noid to the injector pins. (back probed)
it flashes.
in my photo i have the TP pin grounded, when i unplugged it. http://kickfix.ac-vw.com/NOID/91-noid-sf1.jpg
and
testing injection
and
here is the pin that needs grounding
short B to ground
never accidentally short D to ground or the ECU blows up, a 5vdc trace inside it.
some ECUs pull up the B pin (TP pin or aka, throttle ANGLE)
if that happens, all injections stop
the ECU might flash code for too low TPS, ignore that.
the FSM shows a better way, you extract the 2 injector pins
and then back probe the 2 socket pins while connected to TPS.
it really sucks the injector does not have its own dedictated pins.
you could add them.... then next time, you can work it easier.
Would all this be the next things to do...or in your experience should I do something else next...open to thoughts here
So guys...I won't be able to work on this car for another week (Holiday coming up and the holiday weekend.) But I will be able to answer the the post, just not give any progress reports until nov 26th..about a week...Please don't forget about me and my kick...my saga continues...But I am making progress. As I said before..this Kick Wants to RUN...and with all your Guys' help it WILL. I especially thank XXX...don't know where I would be at this point without your help...Thanks all!
Last edited by Sidekick Mike; 11-19-2012 at 02:48 AM.
1992 Suzuki Sidekick 2dr 4wd 1.6L 8v TBI Manual Canadian Built, California Model 103,XXX miles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidekick Mike
Ok Guys,
It was a wrenching sunday...but a much better one!?
First, I paperclipped again...CEL flashes "12" steady or cranking. No other codes. After that as I said before I was concerned about the dizzy rotor cap possibly being put on wrong.
I made sure it was on right. Then I read the kick fix how to time the dizzy. Lo and behold the PO must have put on the wires incorrectly!
that is because all books not factory are wrong, ALL!
including some online, that copy books not true FSM.
Ok..So I use the liquid paper to "paint the dizzy cap" and get the wires correctly installed. Then the sneek peek. Cam belt is good. It has not slipped. It is a GATES brand..could this be original or did Suzuki use a different brand (OEM).
Orig. is long gone. Gates RULES
It looks good...like it may have been replaced before. I would like to replace it later though. I did what the kick fix said and it all aligned up when I checked! Perfect! So I put the cam cover bolts back on. Asked my wife for some help here. I had her just turn the key...I wanted to feel the fuel pressure on the line right before the fuel regulator.
thats the return line and if its blocked pressure is 60psi. BAd and do not pinch that line, it overloads the pump, as does a clogged fuel filer, the small line is vacuum or intake baro side.
but running normal is a very small pressure on the return like after all its a wide open path to the tank. so...... tiny pressure, here, some can feel it, but after 20 year old hard line, 1psi here is hard to feel... use gauges and win.
and is the wrong spot to check , the injector is on the OTHER side. it is near impossible to check fuel pressure on any stock 8v, use the test port at the filter.
When she turn the key I felt the Pressure...it is strong. (it should not be but.. you never did all 8 tests on the pump page, not yet......)
Next, I checked the spark for each spark plug...each is good. Ok, I think I am getting somewhere. YOU ARE !
I had already removed the air filter and tube...gonna try some starting fluid again. I asked my wife to crank and lo and behold...It started and sounded really good but then died.
Great, it runs , now you need working EFI.
If you guys remember from my original post i said it "kinda" ran on starting fuel. IT DEFINITELY will RUN on starting fuel now and IT sounds Good.
See, how nice that ,that healthy engine sound, not like sputtering death.
I shot some more starting fluid and when i cranked it and it started the TACH moved up like it is supposed to.
good that is spark feed back to the, good, that means the ecu
is allowed to INJECT now.
And as it started I was almost able to kinda rev up and down ..but then it died. Starting fuel ran out. XXX: could the fact that i revved it up and down give me the impression that the TPS might be okay?
no.
only a meter can validate the TPS, its easy to test.
The TP pin must not be over 3.5v keyon, no start.
it usually is 1v but spec is 0 to 2v. TP is really throttle angle in modern terms.. if too high you get unflood mode. (usually this is a gross TPS fail or the ground to it is snapped off)
Wow..My wife was so excited to see and hear it run for a few seconds..me too! GREAT huh ?
Although..the tach only comes up when the motor runs for a few seconds on starting fuel...When I crank..it does not to appear to move much. it wont go above 300 until it starts and 800 or 1500 if all parts
are workiing, Dash pot , ISC,IAC.
Ok, I did not have enough time to check the other things but I will. When I realized that the wires were incorrect I thought that this is definitely the problem. For sure I would have never been able to get it this far had I not seen the problem thru the guidance of you guys and the kickfix pages. thanks, but this is typical of no starts field cars
PO fiddled and fiddled lots of things , adding to the mix.
I have new wires, rotor and cap coming from NAPA on Monday. These will not solve my problem...I know this..But i need to replace them anyways. So..XXX...I would believe at this point the ECU is probably OK and my spark is good. Cam belt is ok and wires wired correctly.
So Guys...Im thinking this is the next plan of attack:
I always do compression test. after all did the PO mess up lash too...
my suspicious mind. says, why burn up good valves. now. huh?
1) Check fuel pressure. that is always a #1 for EFI, if bad the whole EFI is just window dressing.... useless.
2) Now Back probe that injector with the noid light (correctly this time). I ran out of daylight today..but man..those connections seem difficult to back up and remove so that I can then pull back the tiny little rubber seals and then back-probe it. Any thoughts on this?
I use long leather needles. sold at walmart or any yardage store.
not having Pomona, wire lead sets in my meter kit.
its just 1 needle for the TPS , one to ground (clip) and needle to
the TP pin , key on? 1v, 4v, 3.5v what> it must not be signalling WOT. this is for sure , or the ECU will cut fuel. its a FEATURE>
I almost what to solder up an intermediate 6 wire temp harness so i can "back Probe" or "tap into" the connection for the noid light. Again, any more thoughts on this.
no need, pull the connector, attach the NOID then ground TP pin.
on the ECU side. yes backprobing a noid is a PITA.
the 16v has 4 to do but have only 2 pins each and is easy
the 8v is not so easy.
if paranoid,(justified) take small heat shink
3) Remove the air horn and look down and turn key and visually look..any gas going down there??
was there?
4) I hear two clicks under the dash...I have not tried swapping out the fuel pump relays. Should I? NO , only if the pump dont spin for 3seconds (listen at the filler cap hole ,cap off, hear it?
it only runs for 3 seconds key on.
and full time cranking( you cant hear a pump , cranking
nor when running, the pump runs fill time running. 34psi too.
Ok, XXX, basically...looks like I'm going back to this: (I copied and pasted this from before):
i will map you out now YES!
i crank and look down air horn, NO fuel, my pressure is at 32psi.
i check the TPS for 2vdc on the TP pin (wiper pin)
its 2v. the TPS is not signally WOT, good,
WOT cuts fuel cranking , its a FEATURE of all ECUs. made.
my tachometer shows needle hit 200 or 300 rpm cranking, a strong battery for sure.
i attach the noid to the injector pins. (back probed)
it flashes.
in my photo i have the TP pin grounded, when i unplugged it. http://kickfix.ac-vw.com/NOID/91-noid-sf1.jpg
and
testing injection
and
here is the pin that needs grounding
short B to ground
never accidentally short D to ground or the ECU blows up, a 5vdc trace inside it.
some ECUs pull up the B pin (TP pin or aka, throttle ANGLE)
if that happens, all injections stop
the ECU might flash code for too low TPS, ignore that.
the FSM shows a better way, you extract the 2 injector pins
and then back probe the 2 socket pins while connected to TPS.
it really sucks the injector does not have its own dedictated pins.
you could add them.... then next time, you can work it easier.
Would all this be the next things to do...or in your experience should I do something else next...open to thoughts here
So guys...I won't be able to work on this car for another week (Holiday coming up and the holiday weekend.) But I will be able to answer the the post, just not give any progress reports until nov 26th..about a week...Please don't forget about me and my kick...my saga continues...But I am making progress. As I said before..this Kick Wants to RUN...and with all your Guys' help it WILL. I especially thank XXX...don't know where I would be at this point without your help...Thanks all!
you're welcome (my list) based on life span and PO nuts reasons.
compression good. (checked off)
lash at spec, so you dont burn up valve..
spark , you have spark
tacho , moves up scale cranking it does.
TP pin B not at wide open throttle setting, simple volt meter check.
Fuel pressure at the test port in the fuel filter (6mm) HF has the hose and gauge. that fasts all kicks. http://kickfix.ac-vw.com/INJECTORS/TBI-conn-1w.jpg
34psi. the fsm pages the spec off my pump page
that is here http://kickfix.ac-vw.com/INJECTORS/P...l-press95w.jpg
ok at this moment the motor is good, the spark is good
test fuel works. motor dont run , fuel pressure is good.
Now we do EFI...
NOID flashes or not.
if it dont flash the ECU is toast, about half can be fixed on my bad ECU page. damage on ECU is unlimited, so.... only fate rules this...
im the guy they called for lightening damage or floods......
The ecu has these permissive to INJECT.
1: power. (that be grounds too) seem so.
2: CMP firing. yes, it is.
3: spark feed back, tacho upscale. yes. it is.
4: fuel pressure at 42psi. Unknown?
5: non clogged injector. unknown. a $19 fix , ask.
6: ECU good, the injector driver must fire the injector, or it will never run by it self.
the pump tests are like 8 tests (see pump page for them all)
but the leak down test shows that the pump is not backfeed' leaking
and that the injectors is not leaking., at once.
you can check injector, for injections, just by looking. and not done yet?.
sorry for long post, but PO nuts kicks are like that, a bucket of problems. assume its all bad, and it gets easier.
all comments, assume not flooding.... as i cant see it inject nor
look at spark tips for SIGNS.
Noid test checks if the injector is getting the pulse signal from the ECU - if it fails, either the ECU has failed, or the wires to and from the injector have failed. Before determining ECU is bad, you need to check the injector wires. Do NOT hotwire the injector to test it. Ever.
Just curious, you advise you tried with starter fluid as the air filter was already off, and it ran until the starter fluid ran out. Did you not try to just start the car normally?? At least you have determined that your problem is on the fuel side of ignition - fuel pressure (you say this is ok) or injector/injector signal. How old was the gas that was originally in the car? And what was the condition of the old fuel pump and filter? Rusty? The injectors have tiny screens on them - easily clogged with dirty fuel. These can be cleaned.
So Guys...Im thinking this is the next plan of attack:
1) Check fuel pressure.
2) Now Back probe that injector with the noid light (correctly this time). I ran out of daylight today..but man..those connections seem difficult to back up and remove so that I can then pull back the tiny little rubber seals and then backprobe it. Any thoughts on this? I almost what to solder up an intermediate 6 wire temp harness so i can "back Probe" or "tap into" the connection for the noid light. Again, any more thoughts on this.
3) Remove the air horn and look down and turn key and visually look..any gas going down there??
4) I hear two clicks under the dash...I have not tried swapping out the fuel pump relays. Should I?
5) Check volts at TSP connector per XXX (before).
Responding to number 2 above. Just some 'thoughts on this'......
bex that is SOP
no need to tell folks bad wires (obvious) are bad. don't work. just watch chevy chase xmas vacation, its all you need, for training. one would hope...
yes, do check continuity of any suspect path and good insulation qualities. yes, please do. ( we can put that up on the wall and be proud)
I always think it is best not to assume that posters are mechanics who follow or understand 'standard operating procedure'. And, at least in my experience, failure in a noid test may not indicate that the ECU is toast (which presumes you must throw it away and get another one, no?) but only that 2 transistors in the ECU may need to replaced. $20 or less. Or wiring to the ECU is bad. IMHO.
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