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Old 08-29-2012, 02:17 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Red face Ignition Timing woes

UK Vitara 4WD JLX 5 door, 1995, 1.6L 16v 16B engine. It has a 'DAKAR' badge on the tailgate but this may have been added later. It has the 'fat boy' wheels with plastic wing extension trims, etc.

Car has been running perfectly for the last year. Drove it one morning but after 100 yards, engine began misfiring then came to a dead halt. All fuses OK. Engine cranked but wouldn't start. Smell of fuel from exhaust so it was fueling.

Investigation
Water had got into the engine bay the previous evening; Cornwall is having a monsoon summer again and a number of deep standing water splashes left water in the engine bay. There was not enough to flood it but enough to leave significant water around the plug leads and a number of loom plugs/sockets.
  1. Dried engine bay out
  2. Distributor removed to check for water ingress through breather hole - none found (mistake no. 1 - assumed distributor alignment would be simple)
  3. Realigned distributor to No 1 rotor with No 1 valves off-cam (removed valve cover)
  4. Checked for spark at coil - good strong spark - coil OK
  5. Poor spark at plugs - plugs changed - spark but not fantastic
  6. Distributor cap replaced - no change
  7. Distributor rotor replaced - no change
  8. Distributor rotated from one extreme to another (locking bolt removed) engine started but exceedingly rough. Timing light showed about 60 degrees BTDC.
  9. Check timing belt - removed radiator,auxiliary belt, fan, crankshaft auxiliary pulley and timing belt cover. Rotated engine and all timing marks were in alignment; crankshaft pulley mark at 12 o'clock lined up with indicator on block and cam pulley 'E' mark also at 12 o'clock. No problems there!
  10. At this point, we noticed that No.1 cylinder valves were on cam with no slack, but No.4 cylinders valves were off cam (all slack). The implication is that the cylinder closest to the firewall was in fact 'No.1' or that the engine timing was in fact set to No.4. The car had always run well with this setup so there is obviously no problem there. However, this meant that the ignition timing was out as we had set it up believing the ignition was to be set up on No.1, hence very rough. It would rev' but roughness prohibited that for more than a minute due to obvious pre-ignition.
  11. Reset ignition timing so that it matched the correct positioning of the engine timing.
  12. Restart engine whilst rotating distributor to extremes. Engine started more evenly this time but required full throttle to maintain smooth but exceedingly low tickover. Unable to rev' at all. Timing light used and ascertained that ignition timing was 60 degrees ATDC.

What do we know?
Plugs, leads, rotor, distributor cap and coil are OK. Hall effect transistor circuit within distributor assumed to be OK as ECU was clearly receiving a signal and the distributor internals had not been interfered with. The igniter appeared to be receiving a signal from the ECU but we are uncertain as to quality. Igniter assumed to be OK as there was a spark but will need testing further. Timing is clearly an issue so maybe the ECU is getting a signal forcing it to wrongly adjust ignition timing or the ECU is faulty.

So is it the ECU? First inspection shows perfect solder joints and no evidence of overheating/charring.

Now we are stuck. I can not find anybody to swap my ECU with theirs to check that it runs their engine (I wouldn't use theirs in my vehicle on the grounds that a problem with my system may have damaged the ECU); same with the igniter.

So, 'all' I need is a circuit diagram of the ECU and ignitor so as to check through with an oscilloscope, waveform generator and digital multimeter (battery powered 'multimeters' often use 9v batteries and can damage logic circuits.)

The igniter is a Denso 131300-1690 and the ECU is a Denso 33920-57B3. I think the serial number is 100797 4441 12V. My nearest ECU doctor changes a minimum of 120 to 'fix' an ECU so I would rather check it myself, being a retired electronics engineer!

I can not find any reliable and trustworthy information anywhere for this engine or it's electronics.

Can anyone help me solve this puzzle and ease my considerable frustration?
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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When you have crank at 12 and cam at 12 you are at # 4 compression stoke. That's how you set it for the engine. Then you want to rotate the engine with the crankshaft bolt 2 revolutions then you will be at #1 compression, then set the distributor to #1 firing. Then it should run.

Last edited by jholl; 08-29-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for replying so quickly jholl. I can't be sure whether we did that in all the permutations we tried but I will definitely give it a go tomorrow providing the 'monsoon' weather we are having eases!
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:55 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think you'll find that the distributor uses a VR sensor rather than a Hall Effect. You need to use a jumper in the monitor coupler to fix the timing to base settings and then adjust the distributor using a timing light until you get that right.
As you will have seen the 57B series uses a number of custom ICs, it takes a fair amount of work to reverse engineer one subsequently no-one publishes their schematics. I charge 45 to 75 to repair an ECU, if its not faulty then there is no charge other than the return postage, however with a 57B30 damage is usually obvious. Given that your initial issues seem to have been caused by water in the engine bay then its unlikely to be a faulty ECU. You should get the timing right and then follow the diagnostics here:

http://www.rhinoman.org/manuals/Vita..._mpfi_diag.pdf

i know what you mean about the weather, our village fayre has just been cancelled as the rec is under 6" of water :-(
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Last edited by Rhinoman; 08-29-2012 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think it is ONE crankshaft revolution to get from #4 TDC firing to #1 TDC firing, not 2. Since a plug fires every 180 degrees of crankshaft revolution and the firing order is 1-3-4-2, 1 rev would take you to #1 TDC firing and 2 revs would take you to #4 firing. The crank turns twice for every single rotation of the camshaft.
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Old 08-30-2012, 05:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Yeah it is 1 revolution. My bad.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:03 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Thanks

Thanks Vipergeek, we knew what jholl meant.

Rhinoman - Your advice and offer is very welcome! Thanks. I agree about the ECU - there is no evidence of electrical faults and I can't see how a little water around the engine bay could affect the ECU. I also don't see how the igniter can cause the problem. However, after trying every permutation we began to grasp at straws. Our main difficulty stemmed from not being able to find reliable information for this model.

I will make a start on it today, following your advice, between showers if possible.

Very impressed by the quick response to our posting!

Chris
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Easy confirmation of #1 TDC compression. (low tech)

Remove plug, insert a section of rubber hose tight into plug hole,
rotate engine to TDC mark, blow in hose,
if leaks rotate once, repeat,
restricted (valves closed) TDC (C)..... Philip
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 15thmidlifecrisis View Post
UK Vitara 4WD JLX 5 door, 1995, 1.6L 16v 16B engine. It has a 'DAKAR' badge on the tailgate but this may have been added later. It has the 'fat boy' wheels with plastic wing extension trims, etc.

Car has been running perfectly for the last year. Drove it one morning but after 100 yards, engine began misfiring then came to a dead halt. All fuses OK. Engine cranked but wouldn't start. Smell of fuel from exhaust so it was fueling.

Investigation
Water had got into the engine bay the previous evening; Cornwall is having a monsoon summer again and a number of deep standing water splashes left water in the engine bay. There was not enough to flood it but enough to leave significant water around the plug leads and a number of loom plugs/sockets.


10. At this point, we noticed that No.1 cylinder valves were on cam with no slack, but No.4 cylinders valves were off cam (all slack). The implication is that the cylinder closest to the firewall was in fact 'No.1' or that the engine timing was in fact set to No.4. The car had always run well with this setup so there is obviously no problem there. However, this meant that the ignition timing was out as we had set it up believing the ignition was to be set up on No.1, hence very rough. It would rev' but roughness prohibited that for more than a minute due to obvious pre-ignition.
Someone will jump me if I am rwong here but I thought that #1 cyl was closest to the radiator and #4 was closest to the firewall.
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GumbyCT View Post
Someone will jump me if I am rwong here but I thought that #1 cyl was closest to the radiator and #4 was closest to the firewall.
Of course you are correct
And his engine was timed correctly to #4 cylinder
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