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Old 11-25-2011, 03:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 93 suzuki sidekick 16 Valve ignition timing

As most of you know I have been replacing the crank seal, water pump, timing belt, and timing belt cover on a 93 sidekick 4x4 I just purchased.

Anyway, when I took off the timing cover i found that the last person that messed with the motor set it with the "I" mark at 12:00 instead of the "E". It ran fine but I was told that it was 180 degrees off. When I put new belt on I went ahead and moved the cam so it was lined up with the "E" at 12:00 top dead center for cylinder #4 and the crank is at 12:00 also.

Now, of course, it won't start since the ignition timing is off. Is there a simple adjustment I can make at the distributer that will at least allow it to start. I figured that since it was exactly 180 degrees off before that maybe the initial ignition timing wouldn't be too difficult.

Any suggestions just to get it to start?

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 11-25-2011, 03:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yah. You have to set the ignition timing, especially after doing what you have just done. Hopefully you have walked the cam manually to make sure that the valves are not hitting (and with valve cover off have checked lash, as well). Now to ignition timing which is set to the #1 cylinder. You might as well do this right, rather than 'just allow it to start'.
Glad you were finally able to set the timing gears right.
How to set ignition timing
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Old 11-25-2011, 03:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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i dont believe what you say, sorry
Quote:
set it with the "I" mark at 12:00 instead of the "E".
statement fail 1, the spoke I or the key I.? not saying which I mark makes post useless to me....
failure 2:
are you saying (you left out the most important part)
that the PO, set crank to TDC
and the I spoke is at 12pm? is that what you say, and if yes, what did you then do.?
if yes, say so.
if true then the key on the crank is tripped, the motor will not run for crap if time to I.
that is a fact
if im wrong ,then THAT means the crank is stripped.
if the crank is right then you idea of running ok is greatly flawed.

first and foremost DID YOU LOOK AT THE CRANK KEY.
my timing page , warns you of the BAD things , if you dont look 1 time.
did you?
anytime the cam is OBVIOUSLY wrong as you saw:
1: PO was nuts (fix it)
2: crank key stripped or missing (look , see, yes, fix it) and PO tried to hide it.
3: belt slipped. (fix it)
consider all 3, and react based on what you see, ask for advice.

point 2, why does my ignition page not tell you this answer.

How to set ignition timing

crank at TDC 0degr (or -5BTDC if you desire)
left side of scale is BTDC (advanced)
next drop the disty so the rotor lands on 1pm tower term.
lock it down. note rotor must be aliged to 1pm term. exactly
now lay down the wires , 1,3,4,2
that be all there is to it.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
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we have hundreds of crazy PO posts here
the worst is ! (classic)
PO drives car, (never read TSB or 60k rule in glove box) and either
stripped the crank snout
and or
stripped the belt.
he then fiddled the disty all all ways imaginable ( i call these Disty spinners, crazy)

or worse tried some odd (wildly odd) combination of illegal cam timing and or disty.
so many posts here for that.

that is way, when things are so wrong ,start at square 1, and put it all back as god suzuki wants you to do. 1 step at a time.
step one, is the crank stripped.

read the steps if you dont understand one , ask
if you get stuck ask
if you need help ask


did you skip phase 2 ,step 4, and if yes, why?



many books say , there is no need to take off the big bolt,
yes, that is true , mechanically
but is false, based on REALITY, something they didnt understand 20 years ago at pen to paper.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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here is my if list, its a machine, it is 100% , non flexiable in its mechanical moton.
you must put it back the right way or it will no run or run right.

if crank keyway not sheared (or missing key or worse)
if cam key is planted to E
if cam cog "E" spoke is 12pm and crank clog 12pm (TDC to 0)
and all locked down and tensioned, then by dang, you are ready to do the distributor.
the disty is not hard.

there are lots of ways to proceed here.
3 non standard ways and timing it or Suzuki way at 1pm see 1pm in photo below, see it?
i cant tell you what is best for you , you can time it 4 diff ways
but i time mine, to 1pm so all wires sets fit. that is the biggest reason.
so , in my case, i pull the disty and plant it to 1pm.
and lock it down
then route the wire like this,
and it WILL RUN (later use s timing strobe to time it exactly)

this is clear, no? no ambiguity there but TDC is at 0 ! and all 4 valves car closed at #1.
do you know how to determine no which cylinder is firiing at TDC.
there are two. 1 and 4. there is no others , at that setting.
just 1 and 4. 1 has loose valves (correct) and 4 has tight valves.(correct)
if reversed, rotate crank CW 360 degrees and the #1 valve must be loose.
if not you messed up the cam big time.

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Old 11-25-2011, 04:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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this post is bogus.
buddy this is not a swift, this is G16B suzuki engine.
why are you posting swift data.
and that state ment is not true, read my page, it explains the truth.
it is not UNIVERSAL, it is used on 2 motors, far from universal. 2 only. Unless you think 2 motors is a universal fit, ( i dont)
the SF413 is DOHC or car is SOHC and 1.3L not 1.6L ours is SE416

do you see how different they are? if not why?
as you can clearly see if he reversed the CAM cog , it hAVE no marks. (putting front of cog to rear) we have zero posts for that wild idea. wow.
his,is not reversed. (nor would i expect it, as id have to be blind to miss that.
)
now lets do dumb PO frak up #2 (so many)
lets pretend he dont have FSM (i guess your mech works blind,stiggy ? odd that, with 7 online sources all 100% easy to find. , ) alldata.com?
4 ways to mess up (not counting front to back reversals,(wow)
FU2:
he puts the cam key into the "I" slot ( oops 1) look at cog below, see that vast error from cam to crank?
he then times the motor with the "I" spoke ( oop2) (he is in the S413 dream trance.....)
he looks at the cam crank timing again, oops.
( 2 wrongs don't make a right) the Bob across the shop , yells, that is no SF motor buddy.

can you not look below and see the cam is grossly retarded, i can. (double I marks wrong or any mix but E and E.)?
in fact you can look and see how all ways with wrong marks are wrong, just gander a it.

btw ,we have 100s of posts here for each goofy PO action, no lack of that here ......
cheers


Quote:
Originally Posted by stiggybaby View Post
When I learned how to change a timing belt last year, it was on a 98 SOHC Suzuki swift, and that is what confused my friend (mechanic).
The cam cog is like a universal cam cog for either DOHC or single. So, you can take the cam cog OFF, not turn neither the crank or cam, and but the cam cog back on with the I showing top instead of E showing top, and it really would not matter, but if you then moved either the crank or cam independently... and then used mark(s) to line up... then PROBLEM.

In other words, if PO had cam cog off, and put it back on with other mark up, then it would not effect anything, until next person tries to use mark, assuming that mark is correct.

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

Last edited by fix-kick; 11-27-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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again
crank key up
tdc mark on crank to 12pm aligned with pump TDC
cam key down, i repeat cam key down.
cam key in to E mark key slit ( is that not clear)
cam spoke E mark 12pm
cam spoke E mark at 12pm aligned with 12pm back pan.
i even painted them white in all photos so they are clear.

i posted this above lines 100s of times, just so
TDC E mark 12 pm is not clear.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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if really confused? ( an amazing easy solution to this issue , no ?)
weld the "I"key cog slot up (5min job) ( solves FU#1)
grind the I mark off , 1min flat. (solves FU#2)

and stamp it , this side front. 5 minute fumbling my stamp kit.
then above "E" spoke put "UP #4 fire"

end confusion

the real issue is did your eyes inspect all key ways.
the cars are 20 years old, it not some 2010 car, in for service. you need to be looking for stuff bad.

check out my wheel of truth
this is my WALKING "E" DEMO (assumes both keys in the right slot and not sheared and cam belt installed perfectly.


Last edited by fix-kick; 11-27-2011 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Okay, let me try to understand this. Based on your above post(if I understood it correctly) #1 and #4 can both be TDC at the same time but at true TDC #1 has loose valve and #4 has closed valves. I know I am at the right spot when I can't blow any air into the #1 spark hole. Is that a correct statement?

At this point the "E" on the camshaft should be at 12:00 and the arrow and keys should align at 12:00 on the crankshaft. Is that correct?

In the beginning when I first pulled the timing cover off for the first time to replace the crank seal the guy I had helping me turned the cam shaft(with belt still on) to where #1 cylinder was all the way to the top. When #1 was all the way at the top, the "I" was at 12 oclock on the cam wheel. Also, the cog on the crank was lined up at 12:00. This made me think it was set this way because it couldn't randomly be lined up like this.(motor ran fine).

Bex told me that the motor would still run with this setup but would be 180degrees off. So... after I replaced the crank seal and was getting ready to replace the belt I turned the cam shaft to the point where the "E" was at 12:00 and the crank was lined up at 12:00. Also, #1 and #4 cylinders are all the way to the top. Isn't this how it is suppose to be?

Put it all back together and it wouldn't start. This didn't suprise me because me because Bex informed me that I would have to adjust the ingnition timing if I adjusted the crank and cam to line up like the kick-fix pages say it should.

So this is where I am. I just need to figure out how to adjust the distributer to where it will at least start so I can do use the timing light to do the fine tuning.

I have never touched a distributer so I am trying to read everything on here and on kick-fix to figure it out.

I am going to take a picture of my distributer and someone tell me what I need to do to move it to the correct location.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:50 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Here is where I am...

Here is my distributer. plug at 11:00 is #1, going clockwise from there are #2, #4, and #3. Remeber, it was running before I took the timing belt off and moved the crank from "I" mark at the top to "E" at the top.m

Next pic shows the cam pully.

Last pic shows crank pully.

What do I adjust on the distributer to get it time good enough to start? I have read thru all the links to the timing on this but I still don't understand. Can you tell me what I loosen to get the distributer to turn? Sorry, I am very new to all of this but I am learning thanks to you guys.

Thanks,

alan
Attached Thumbnails
93 suzuki sidekick 16 Valve ignition timing-distributer.jpg   93 suzuki sidekick 16 Valve ignition timing-campully.jpg   93 suzuki sidekick 16 Valve ignition timing-crankpully.jpg  
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