93 sidekick 8v 4x4 5 speed 2 door Relays Chattering No Start - Fuel pump??

MasterMarine · 08-22-2009, 01:00 AM

Hello out there,

First post here so I hope I have all the required info.

I have a 93 Suzuki Sidekick 8V TBI 4x4 5 speed 2 door convertible. It was running just fine, as far as I can tell. I parked it overnight and went out to head for work and it did not start right up. I was able to get it started after much cranking. It was idling high and would hesitate if I tried to accelerate the motor with no load. I moved the other car from the garage and put the suzuki in 4 low to pull in the garage since I thought it would be difficult to start again. I moved it in the garage while it was running at its fast idle. Once I came home from work, it would not start any more. I started reading my manuals and looked at some online forums and other info.

I found the check engine light does come on when you turn on the key. It gives me the 12 or 21 that means "all good" if I jump the test leads. The fuel pump runs for about 1.5 seconds and then the main relay and fuel pump relay start chattering. I tried swapping the relays. I have 40 PSI at the fuel filter test point. I ordered some capacitors and swapped them out this afternoon. I did not see any signs of major leakage in the ECM. Plugged in ECM. Still same symptoms.

I read something about fuel pump load. I checked the Amps on the pink / some other color wire at the fuel pump relay with my MAC Tools clamp on DC ammeter. I have seen 4.5 amps and even 6 amps but it is hard to tell because the pump does not run very long and the meter is digital so it takes a bit of time to get a reading. I have visually checked the wiring from the B-pillar to the big connector behind the driver's taillight, under the dash, and from the taillight to the fuel pump and it all looks good. I do not see any "creative wiring" anywhere. The fuel pump ground is sweet. It appears the wiring harness runs thru the sill which is totally inaccessible from the A pillar to the B pillar.

Is this a common fuel pump failure? Too much draw?

The thing only has 247000 miles on it and is probably OEM. I just do not want to pull the fuel tank and face the same buzz kill I just did after changing those caps in the ECM.

What say you?

MasterMarine

MasterMarine · 08-22-2009, 02:34 AM

I removed part of the rear bumper and checked the connections to the fuel pump. All good there.

If I disconnect the fuel pump there, still get rattling relays.

If I disconnect the connector behind the driver's side taillight, still buzzing relays.

If I disconnect the fuel pump relay, no more buzzing. Did I mention that I had swapped the relays around? Well I have and still the same.

I do not think it is the fuel pump drawing to much juice when it is doing it without the pump even connected to the wiring.

What is wrong with this car?

MasterMarine

MasterMarine · 08-22-2009, 10:13 PM

So I spent some time reading the pages at kick-fix.com some more. I wish there was a specific page about the symptom of relays clicking on and off. It is mentioned in a few places.

I traced all the wiring I can see. I checked out the main fuse panel near the battery. I used jumper cables to create additional grounds between the battery, engine and chassis. I have done some swearing (mostly when I was trying to get the bumper off).

Anyway, I have found that if I disconnect the IAC then I do not get the fluttering of the relays. I tested it using the procedures in my FSM (resistance, energize with 12 v and de-energize while blowing thru tubes) and it appears to be good according to them.

Should I replace the IAC? I don't want to just start swapping parts if possible.

Please help, I need to get to work on Monday!

MasterMarine

jtgh · 08-23-2009, 10:33 PM

crap work monday. ouch.!

yes, we have almost 10 posts ,on this squawk ,here. total.
you fuel pump is static current is normal, dynamic >? unk.
your fuel pressure a little high at 40 and the filter is clogged. (spec is 34.2 to 39.8 PSI (key on) Static test. but never see it that high 40, usually is 30. and drops 5 psi running. that filter is supect.

the chatter is the ecu power dropping .
or a comb of weak caps, overloaded pump. (filter clogged)

the power feed to the ecu is weak side.
many ppl have posted the same tests.
sometimes its just a bad pump that surges the power feed real bad.
bang,bang,bang,bang.......
'
btw ,welcome and great testing you did, very good.

there are other contributures.
bad power to ECU.
VSV valve coils shorter (unplug all 3, evap, egr, and dashpot)

unplugging the IAC , its ok, its resistance is ok.
the reason the buzzing stopped is because of the straw on camels back syndrom.
others see this too.

you decrease the power by unplugging it and this lets ecu power rise.
voltage rises ECU gets happy and stops rebooting its its selve. over and over.

the CEL must come on , if it dont this means, ECU fail. or power too low.

very serious that is.

see my bad power and groundpages.
Electrical power failure
see first link on that page for ground checks.

conclusion:
bad fuel pump if filter dont unload it. (new filter tops)
bad ecu or caps. (you did ????)
bad power feed to ecu. check voltages. on ecu with buzz.

power , ground .
and power to main relay and out of it.
and voltage leaving FP relay.

I think the power of of the main relay is what bounces.
it feed s many things, including the fuel pump.

the blue/black wire must be at 12vdc at all times key on.

make sure the grounds at the dizzy base are tight. and at all fire wall grounds and behind battery and the starter top ground battery cable. tight,tight.

imho ,
your blue black wire is overloading. bottom of main.
see it.
http://www.kick-fix.com/ECU/91-95-TB...matic-base.jpg

id check that path real careful.

one guy out of 50 found ecu overloading its self. (or more if you consider the caps)
that is not easy to prove, not at all.

you can kill pump by pulling the ground to it at the left rear tail light pit.
i bet it stops clicking.

btw ,this is my favorite post.
the clickers.

let me explain the clicks.

ecu gets power
all VSV and relays are relaxed.
then some relays energize. (some VSV are default open) so they close for sure like EVAP. as 1 example.
main pulls in with key.
fp pulls in with software.

then blu-black overloads ( well they all do to some degree) but if the caps good and the pump not bad or overloaded or bad commutator brushes, etc, the ecu power drops at B1 and B7, as voltage falls below 10v, some where, ecu reboots.

that is my theory.

the corner cap in the ecu must be robust.
the pump must be pushing into a good filter and the regulator must not be stuck closed or the return line pinched.

that wire is weak, copper gauge is not that great back to tank, im afraid.

that should help you.

cheers.

MasterMarine · 08-24-2009, 01:10 AM

jtgh,
Thank you for your long and informative post. It is great that you spend your time here helping others out.

One of the big problems I have is that it appears my FSM is for 16v motors. It shows a big fancy main relay that also runs the fuel pump in all the drawings I can find. I have a FSM and a supplement and neither of them have the right wiring diagram. I also have a Chilton's and a Haynes and they are not too helpful either.

I will trace thru those wires tomorrow. I got pissed at the Sidekick and went trail riding on my KTM today to blow off some steam.

I feel much better now!

Are there any connectors between the fuse block under the hood and the main relay? Do you have a PDF of the wiring diagram for my vehicle that shows connectors, etc. for my vehicle? I saw the EFI block diagram you referenced but I am looking for one that shows connectors and pin numbers.

Thanks again,
MasterMarine

jtgh · 08-24-2009, 02:21 AM

if have a tracker 95 fsm and my be very very close.
the book covers 8v and 16v 100% ,
including harness details. and harness roughting path drawings.

the harness details show all connnectors and all colors , pin numbers and connector pin out drawings. ALL !

i can share this.
tell me what part you need there are 100 pages. of this in the book,
but only 10 pages for your parts

the schemematic on my page of same name is only the simplied drawing.
it is electrically perfect but does not show all the connections and pin numbers

connector from main to subfuse panel above knees, no . i dont think so.
i will check though.
i think this is accurate for your car.

http://www.kick-fix.com/power-elect/Distribution1.jpg

but will look on the AM in real fsm routing page.
cheers.

MasterMarine · 09-30-2009, 11:59 PM

Thank you for your help!

I found the problem was the ECU. Apparently replacing the capacitors did not fix it.

Here is how I found out what was wrong.

I called William at Hawk's Suzuki to get some ECU pricing. In the course of our conversation about how he repaired the units, he told me he really likes to test the bad ECU rather than just sending out a rebuilt one to a customer. I asked him if I could send more than just the ECU to him to test. He said OK. So, I took off the distributor, Idle air valve, relays, ignition coil with module, and the vacuum solenoids. I sent all this stuff to William. He tried my parts one by one on another Sidekick he had there and found the ECU was causing the clicking on his Sidekick. I bought a rebuilt ECU from him and he sent all the other parts back. He did a great job and was very helpful.

I put the car all back together and it runs!!

It is good to have the Sidekick going again!

kick-fix · 10-01-2009, 02:52 AM

not just caps.

something in in side shorting.
for sure.

good for you , we get lots of these here. chattery box ecu.

some are extrernal shorts and then your kind,

cheers !