Need More power for 1.6L 8v geo tracker - Page 2 - Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site
Suzuki Forum Suzuki Forums

» Auto Insurance
» Featured Product
Wheel & Tire Center

Go Back   Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site > Suzuki Models > Suzuki Sidekick, Escudo, Vitara & Geo Tracker Forum (1989-1998)
Register Home Forum Active Topics Photo Gallery Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Auto EscrowAuto LoansInsurance

Suzuki-Forums.com is the premier Suzuki Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-06-2009, 01:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 12
Gallery: 0
ZENO0771 is on a distinguished road
Default

I've been lurking these here forums for about a year now (how long my wife has had her '96 Tracker 1.6 16v) and something I've noticed is that many people vaguely ask for "more power" without any "why" or "how much" i.e. the power you need for hillclimbing is not the same as the power I need for keeping it sane on the highway.

Also it amazes me how much engineering Suzuki put into this motor only to get 2 digits' worth of power out of it (95 HP in my case).
ZENO0771 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-06-2009, 02:18 AM   #12 (permalink)
Member
 
Mickey_D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 94
Gallery: 0
Mickey_D is on a distinguished road
Default

It does kind of boggle the mind, doesn't it? I mean, look at one of the modern most hated vehicles on the road - the Dodge Neon. It's only 2.0L, but stock they came with 132bhp in 1995. And if you got the 16V'er it was 150bhp. And you can't exactly tell me the Neon engine is high strung. It's not a high revver.

So if you take off the 400cc's difference between the Zuk's engine and the Neon's engine as a percentage you get a 20% reduction in engine size. Take 20% off 132bhp and you get 105.6bhp. So where did the extra loss of 25bhp go? And it's even MORE glaring when you stick 8 more valves in it...
__________________
1991 US Geo Tracker 1.6L 8V TBI 4X4 hardtop
Mickey_D is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-06-2009, 02:25 AM   #13 (permalink)
Senior
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 339
Gallery: 0
grc1 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZENO0771 View Post
I've been lurking these here forums for about a year now (how long my wife has had her '96 Tracker 1.6 16v) and something I've noticed is that many people vaguely ask for "more power" without any "why" or "how much" i.e. the power you need for hillclimbing is not the same as the power I need for keeping it sane on the highway.

Also it amazes me how much engineering Suzuki put into this motor only to get 2 digits' worth of power out of it (95 HP in my case).
Hi, you are quite right on all points. There is a differance in what "power " is used for. And people are always asking for more. One of the main probs is that most people want bolt on power. In the old days ,you could get away with bolt on power (making the engine breath better) but todays most small engines are breathing better than ever. So what you are left with is internal mods.Yes you can get a heavyer crank . custom pistons, custom rods,diff valves and spings, cam,ect. But at what cost, $3,000 -$5,000 and up. Its a matter of money and how much do you want to spend?

The tracker/suki is actully quite amazing and that it is desined for working in all envirements and is sold in every civalized country in the world. In reality the tracker/suki is not a suv but a true 4X4 truck. It is or was a no frills get there and back 4X4 transportation. There are more trackers/sukis in cuba and the dominican republic than all other 4X4s put together.

Getting back to HP , there is a happy medium in engine life (250,000 miles) and reliablity and MPG. Now throw in the emition equipment and this is what you end up with. If you change any of the above mentioned then yes you can get a lot more HP. But remember ,there is always a price to pay. And that price will be MPG or shorter engine life or less reliablity or out right braking the law in regaurds the emition controls. So yes if there is a will then there is a way, but at what cost?
grc1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-06-2009, 04:13 AM   #14 (permalink)
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 12
Gallery: 0
ZENO0771 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grc1 View Post
In reality the tracker/suki is not a suv but a true 4X4 truck.
Actually I disagree; I've never gone with the insurance industry's definition of SUV. To me, there were only 3 SUVs ever made in/for the U.S.: The original Jeep, the Sammy, and the SideTrack (I suppose you could throw in the Isuzu Amigo and Kia Sportage). All the oversized dino-hogs jamming the roads today are trucks, whether their owners want to admit it or not.

Be that as it may, with all the "crossover" utes running around (Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe, most Subarus etc), I still have a hard time seeing why an automaker couldn't find some profit margin in something similar, only with a ragtop and some ground-clearance. An ultra-efficient 4 banger in the ~130 HP range and a high-output alternator for all the electronics is easily done...or maybe I'm looking for logic in the wrong place again.
ZENO0771 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-06-2009, 04:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 12
Gallery: 0
ZENO0771 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grc1 View Post
Hi, you are quite right on all points. There is a differance in what "power " is used for. And people are always asking for more. One of the main probs is that most people want bolt on power. In the old days ,you could get away with bolt on power (making the engine breath better) but todays most small engines are breathing better than ever. So what you are left with is internal mods.Yes you can get a heavyer crank . custom pistons, custom rods,diff valves and spings, cam,ect. But at what cost, $3,000 -$5,000 and up. Its a matter of money and how much do you want to spend?
Soooo, my hope for an extra, say, 20 HP for the highway for $500 is out?
ZENO0771 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-06-2009, 12:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 9,643
Gallery: 0
jtgh is on a distinguished road
Default

neon and a tiny 1.6L 8v valve motor. , your kidding right.?

if you want 20hp drop in an 1.6L
or better the 1.8,
or better the 2.0L now you can compare apples to apples. they sell a kit , but your a little short. of $ $500 .

see , you need an ECU tuned for the motor and exhaust.

its not like in the olden days,
mod everything, cam, porting, hearder, turbo exh. then tune carb. jets. (gone)

you see, there is this little thing called EFI , the ECU, must be tuned to the car.
the stock ECU , can adapt. the O2 sensor is like, a 2.5% adjustment. narrow band.

so unplug the o2 and tune the ECU by :
making or buying a piggy back.
then you can lie to the ECU by about 10%, before ECU nails you.


if you cant tune it , you will be unhappy. (it will run like crap)
jtgh is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2009, 10:15 AM   #17 (permalink)
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 12
Gallery: 0
ZENO0771 is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtgh View Post

if you want 20hp drop in an 1.6L
or better the 1.8,
or better the 2.0L now you can compare apples to apples. they sell a kit , but your a little short. of $ $500 .
5 bills was just ballpark...I would do this to my own (not yet purchased, looking at '96 or later), my wife's commute is bicycle-distance. 2.0/2.5 swap sounds like a natural fit but everything else I've found (both here and elsewhere) says otherwise. 1.8 would be a lot of work for not much gain (~5HP?) Also I hear the 1.8 has timing chain issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtgh View Post
you see, there is this little thing called EFI , the ECU, must be tuned to the car.
Every motor swap into any vehicle made after about '85 or so is going to require ECU work; just a fact of life. Rule-of-thumb is use the black box from the motor you're putting in, not the original one in your vehicle; then kludge the rest. I've helped do this on a lot of cars; it's tedious but as long as you're not trying something too disparate i.e. a Honda motor in a Ford, it can be done without an Engineering degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtgh View Post
so unplug the o2 and tune the ECU by :
making or buying a piggy back.
then you can lie to the ECU by about 10%, before ECU nails you.
10% in my case = 9.5 HP, halfway there.

I realize that, ultimately, it's about having the right tool (vehicle) for the job. I've yet to find a vehicle that can do it all, but the Zuk is the closest I've found yet. What I haven't found is anyone else who has gone to the trouble of engineering any motor swaps for these except the VW diesel (expensive) or the Chevy 4.3 (WAY overkill for my needs), and I've looked. Asking a motor to do significantly more than it was designed for is dicey, therefore a 2.0/2.5 swap seems to make the most sense...then again I think someone putting these (or something similar) back into production makes sense too, so what do I know?
ZENO0771 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2009, 11:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
Senior
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 339
Gallery: 0
grc1 is on a distinguished road
Default

There is a lot of weird and wonderfull things that can be done. But the main stumbling block is that dam ecu.

The sweetest engine swap I have ever seen from a practical manor is carb model V6 from an old Jeep Comando. (1970 vintage) with the original warner transfer case and trany. It was as close to a drop in as I have ever seen.

The big problem is NO ecu , meaning no emition control. No contols of anykind. Not even a cat-converter.

I think it is still legal to do this in MB. Canada but could be wrong.

You end up with about 125HP and about 22 mpg and you have a lot of room for makeing mods up to 165HP and still have a very reliable tracker.

Yes you can go crazy and get 250Hp but end up with short engine life.

Kinda makes you wonder how people find the time and effert to do this sort of thing.
grc1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2009, 12:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
Member
 
Mickey_D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 94
Gallery: 0
Mickey_D is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtgh View Post
neon and a tiny 1.6L 8v valve motor. , your kidding right.?
Hey, my wife's Neon that's sitting outside right now is only a 2.0L 8 valve engine. That's only a 20% drop to the Zuk engine (or 25% increase FROM the Zuk engine).

I'm just wondering why there's a 66% drop (or 200% increase) between the two engines in terms of horsepower. It's not like the Neon engine is a "tuned" engine. It's as mild mannered as any other "mom mobile" engine.



You know what would be fun? Get an adapter plate and change the engine mounts to drop in an early 80's Mazda RX-7 engine in there!! Not enough torque on the low end to do any damage to the stock Zuk drive train, but Oh. My. Gawd. Rev that little sucker up and you've got more horsepower than you'd know what to do with!!
__________________
1991 US Geo Tracker 1.6L 8V TBI 4X4 hardtop
Mickey_D is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2009, 02:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 9,643
Gallery: 0
jtgh is on a distinguished road
Default

HP, its just a number. (a torque and rpm derivative)

and then there is torque.

why fix upon one simplistic number "xxx" HP ,

why not ask you self .?
what power do i need?, and when do it need it? and under what circumstances./?

1: want to pull stumps (me)?
2: want to come out of turn 4 at 85Mph and accererate faster to 150 MPH?
3: want to run 1/8 , 1/4 mile drag faster.?
4: want wider power band. so car is fun to drive on road.?
5: longer list. for sure....

you can tune the motor anyway you want and the HP NUMBER, is the least important aspect of a driving machine.

It's the power delivery/ timing and handling.

for me, id take a wide power band (lower HP) any day over a higher peak HP motor..

cheers.
jtgh is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site > Suzuki Models > Suzuki Sidekick, Escudo, Vitara & Geo Tracker Forum (1989-1998)

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Suzuki Forums: Suzuki Forum Site forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:47 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.3.2
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.