another 90 tracker won't start

rwd1960 · 04-29-2009, 09:55 PM

I have a 90 tracker w manual trans 1.6 8v motor. It died one day and wouldn't start unless I pull started it. It would then run as long as I kept the rpm's high and die when I let off the gas. The cat converter was removed from this tracker and it ran rich. It has a new coil, distributor, vacuum lines, plugs and wires. Done ecm flow chart test for "cranks but won't start" says replace ecm. Sent it off and had it rebuilt as well as tried a used compatable ecm but it still won't start. Ohms test of tbi was good and it clicks when energised. Checked belt slip but the alignment teeth on both sprockets are lined up. I get spark at all 4 plugs. The voltage coming out of the ecm with the key on was out of range going to the isc. Wierd part is I traced the violet yellow wire from the ecm to the instrument cluster to find the switch that resets the service light. I had the cluster out then plugged all the conectors back in and reassembled. The tracker started right up and ran well. I shut it off and restarted it three times. it ran each time. I went back out later and it won't start again and hasn't run since. What am I missing?

rwd1960 · 04-30-2009, 05:57 PM

I tested the pink/black or A-D pins in the tps connector and am getting no continuity. C-D tests fine and B-D tests fine also. I have a second sensor that tested the same so I either have two bad tps or it's something else.

jtgh · 05-01-2009, 12:57 PM

i will answer 2nd post first.
that TPS IS BAD> ( i now have full schematics 89-98 now) and specs.
i was short on 89 , but no longer (89/90 are a generation set)

did you use the 20,000 or 20k ohm range.
if it is open then it is bad , infinity on the pot = open POT , open resistor inside.

no , ifs , ands or buts...sorry.
see next post for first post responses.

jtgh · 05-01-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd1960

I have a 90 tracker w manual trans 1.6 8v motor. It died one day and wouldn't start unless I pull started it. It would then run as long as I kept the rpm's high and die when I let off the gas.
The cat converter was removed from this tracker and it ran rich.
pulling catcon, will kill the egr, and will make ECU sick and run in limphome.
on most kicks. (limp home is rich and retarded spark advance rules)

It has a new coil, distributor, vacuum lines, plugs and wires. Done ecm flow chart test for "cranks but won't start" says replace ecm.
Sent it off and had it rebuilt as well as tried a used computable ecm but it still won't start. (ecu must be for this year)
Ohms test of tbi was good and it clicks when energised.
I dont know what you did to TBI.? (ISC is my guess)

Checked belt slip but the alignment teeth on both sprockets are lined up. I get spark at all 4 plugs.

The voltage coming out of the ecm with the key on was out of range going to the isc.
Wierd part is I traced the violet yellow wire from the ecm to the instrument cluster to find the switch that resets the service light.
I had the cluster out then plugged all the conectors back in and reassembled.

The tracker started right up and ran well. I shut it off and restarted it three times. it ran each time. I went back out later and it won't start again and hasn't run since. What am I missing?

comments:

on any old car like this:
(the full tune up i wont mention, heheheh)

compression readings. WOT.?
is vacuum steady? about 19 inchs.

then check ECT hot and cold. (no broken wires) 200 ohms hot it must be.
and near 2000 cold. higher if colder than 65F.

If you have a SES function (only on USA FED48 cars) then remove connector C3 on the back of the speedo and forget SES for ever., then activate the CEL DTC by placing the DIAG fuse in its socket.

the EGR must be working, and not leak at idle !
it must open when crusing
the EGR must see a CATCON or the EGR modulator will jam full open.
this effect will really screw up AFR. (air fuel ratio) cruising.

TPS ( side both sides must be good)
the POT side must be good, and the wiper must sweep end to end with no glitches.
the switch side of TPS must close (<300 ohms) {less than 300 ohms}
if the switch does NOT close, the IDLE ISC WILL never activate and
controlled idle will never happen.

the 20 year old ISC will have a bad valve seat , 99% there.

the ISC is modulate at 200 times a second and a DSO is needed to view it.
DSO , digital storage Oscilloscope.

now lets explain LIMPHOME.
Failsaft now what?

the other causes of rich:
fuel pressure at 2x the spec. 65psi is the dead head pressure and is illegal
this car is at 34-39 psi ( filter banjo test port)
over 59 psi is dead head,

if the pressure regulator is stuck closed , you will get over 59.
and car will run rich as a dirty pig.

Key points:
1: pressure fuel. at spec.
2: ECT working and correlated to below temp.
3: motor gets to 180F (82c) full operating temperature !!!
4: working Catcon.
5: egr not leakinig, EGR passes stall test.
6: solid non pulsating vacuum. needle steady! good cyl. compression.

if you have spark and fuel and it cranks and dont start
then press throttle to the floor ,this activates magic unflood mode.
killing all injections, while cranking.

press foot
crank.
start,
see black cloud.

rwd1960 · 05-03-2009, 04:38 PM

I tested compression and all were low "60-125" especially #4. Checked timing gear on crank and key was messed up. I did the locktite 660 fix and re set the valve lash. Checked compression and its better. #1=190, #2=185, #3=185, #4=110"added oil to #4=125" . #1 cyl @TDC rotor is at 11:00. Fuel pressure is at 29 pounds. Here's a question on that. When I turn the key on the pump only runs for a slit second. Mech told me that it was ok as long as it shuts off within 3 seconds. Shouldn't it run a little longer than 1/4-1/2 of a second? The pressure test said to turn the key on 4 times to build up pressure. When I did, my pressure was only 17psi. I turned the key on a few more times and I had 29 psi.

jtgh · 05-03-2009, 07:07 PM

are you saying it still wont start like below?
#4 is very sick,

I think we had 1 person here have a bad ECU that short cycled the fuel pump relay. and was bad ECU caps.
ecu power on pump, over loads power buss , ecu reboots before 3 second timer , times out. this evidence of ecu crashing, and is cause by 2 things.
bad ecu or pump that is overloaded buss, (spec is 4amp on pump)

i wonder if intake valve is leakiing on #4 and causing gross vacuum issues.

does car start with test fuel ?

cheers.
and do come back . it is a fun problem. (bad for you ,but fun for others, very sick minds here.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd1960

I tested compression and all were low "60-125" especially #4. Checked timing gear on crank and key was messed up. I did the locktite 660 fix and re set the valve lash. Checked compression and its better. #1=190, #2=185, #3=185, #4=110"added oil to #4=125" . #1 cyl @TDC rotor is at 11:00. Fuel pressure is at 29 pounds.

Here's a question on that. When I turn the key on the pump only runs for a slit second. Mech told me that it was ok as long as it shuts off within 3 seconds. correct ! Spec is 3 second run , ever time! key is turned on. no less, if less ECU has issues..

Shouldn't it run a little longer than 1/4-1/2 of a second? YES !

The pressure test said to turn the key on 4 times to build up pressure. When I did, my pressure was only 17psi. 4 times assumes gas lines were drained and pressure bled off. that IS bad a pressure reading.

I turned the key on a few more times and I had 29 psi.

rwd1960 · 05-05-2009, 09:33 PM

Hears an update. Yes I'm telling on myself for your enjoyment. I rechecked my timing and found that when I placed the rotor at 11:00 I was on #4 tdc instead of #1tdc. I pulled the distributor and set it on 11:00 with #1tdc and it started. I set the timing at 8 deg btdc and it smoothed out. Now my idle is too high. 2000 at start up and 1500-1600 after a couple of min.

As stated before, the tps is dead. also the isc tests good but I get no voltage to it at key on. When started, there is only 3-4 volts coming out of the ecm to the isc. Manual says 12v when running is this right? The flow chart test for the isc tells me to replace the ecm. The two set screws at the back of the throttle body, the lower one stops the plate in the tb is not holding it open. The upper one, going to the vacuum device is backed off all the way too. also the catcon had been removed from this tracker too.

OK, lets hears it. what now?

jtgh · 05-06-2009, 01:28 PM

UNDERSCORES ARE LINKS< CLICK THEM.
long post ,but you listed them......

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd1960

Hears an update. Yes I'm telling on myself for your enjoyment. I rechecked my timing and found that when I placed the rotor at 11:00 I was on #4 tdc instead of #1tdc. I pulled the distributor and set it on 11:00 with #1tdc and it started. I set the timing at 8 deg btdc and it smoothed out. Now my idle is too high. 2000 at start up and 1500-1600 after a couple of min.

As stated before, the tps is dead. also the isc tests good but I get no voltage to it at key on.
The tps is operated by the +5vdc refr. power supply from inside the ecu.
if it is dead, only 3 things can be wrong.
1: bad ecu (no order)
2: bad wiring (shorted to ground)
3: sensors shorting it to ground.
schematics to run engine
click 89 schematics, the fact are all there. just look. colors of wires and all.

When started, there is only 3-4 volts coming out of the ecm to the isc.
Manual says 12v when running is this right?
No it dont say that. what manual? the crappy Haynes?

The flow chart test for the isc tells me to replace the ecm.
Do not use flow charts, they are for boobs not noobs. HEHEHEHEH

The two set screws at the back of the throttle body, the lower one stops the plate in the tb is not holding it open. BAD.

The upper one, going to the vacuum device is backed off all the way too. also the catcon had been removed from this tracker too. double bad.

OK, lets hears it. what now?

im almost overwhelmed, but 20 years, of bad life, not too surprising.

lets work them one at a time?

cat con out will miss up EGR. ( well leave that, for far later)

in order of "prime fail points"

5v vref.
If you look an my schematic (suz, really) see pin A23 ??
disconnect the TPS and map. sensors. both.
key on
Gray red wire on TPS must be 5v. to ground. (volt meter test)

if not?, then ecu is bad, or that wire is grounded out. (down to 2 possibles)
for this point , you can sort it. (eg.examine ever inch of wire, or cut it at ecu to see if 5v returns to ECU pin 23.)

next.

ISC: just make sure it , is not stuck open, make sure it opens and closes on the bench with 12vdc battery)
if you wish to clean it ,do so now.
this signal to it, is an AC , (alternating current ) and will read diff. on any meter, set to DC . (varies by meter) it needs to be scoped. (also the ECU may be in limphome mode and is not even controlling it , it that is the case)
here is how to deal with just the ISC.
IAC-e testing
note i have 89/90 support now. see it?

Ok now lets discuss the TB.

the TB (89/90 only) is diff, than 91 to 95. far diff.

the Dashpot. this device holds the throttle open for cold starts.
it has a calibration screw which there is a procedure for setting.
i will not go in to that now as that is only to set on a perfect running motor.
HOW EVER , it must be RETRACTED AFTER STARTING or it becomes prime fix target, see?

lets now concentrate on the bottom screw.

that sets the hot idle. (dash pot must retract after starting)
see dash pot.
http://www.kick-fix.com/fresh-air/total-body+dp1w.jpg

key off, the dashpot (cold start fast idle device) holds open the throttle a bit.

now that bottom screws.

that is your hot idle screws (we never touch it 91 +) but on yours , it
is adjustable for hot idle.

but.
before that screw can be set the following must be good.

1: NO AIR LEAKS allowed ,by any path into the induction.
all air leaks on all 8v , cause a false high idle !
(by virtue of the MAP sensor)

setting the screw with leaks , is a no progress path.

2: dash pot must be retracted ( working) to set throttle stop screw on bottom.

3: IAC at base of TB must not be stuck open.
4: no leaking "

Gaskets (all of them , manifold and TB base and center T
vac hoses
diaphragms
Brake boosters.
PVC some how leaking (rare)

if the DP was retracted , as you said, and the stop screw has throttle plate closes, this is FOR SURE, evidence of a massive leak.

The ISC must not be stuck open and dead. too.

do not apply 12vdc to any sensor or actuator ,unless ecu cable to same is unplugged or you WILL blow up ECU.

TB = throttle bady
if you have trouble with JARGON names,
look here J1930 names by SAE org.

EFI-sensor-theory

tell more, get more.
cheers.

PS:
no mention of CEL lamp.

does it glow at key on,
and go out ofter starting.
NO ?

Idle problems are the most difficult problems there are.

why, because everthing , fouls it up. every thing you can think of.
timing.
Air to fuel mixture (AFR)
leaks
bad valves. (crappy vacuum)
weak cylinders.......

rwd1960 · 05-06-2009, 09:14 PM

cel is on at key on then goes off. No codes. Just 12.

Also, I picked up a tps today and tested it like I did the other two I had. It tests bad too. No continuity in, across the coil, and out or A to D. The ohm meter I used works fine when I touch the leads together and I used a second one to make sure the first one worked. Crap!