strange flooding problem

[grc1]

Hi, I have a 1997 geo tracker 16v. On cold days (-20C) this suv will not start due to flooding. Now here is the stange part. Cylinders 3+4 flood out but the other two 1+2 are dry and firing normally.

So far I have changed the plugs, wiring,distrbiter,and rotor cap. All with no change.

Any one have a few ideas you can throw my way?
Thank you

[jtgh]

96 1.6Liter. GOOD a tune of , perfect !
NOID lamp to Injectors shows, what the ECU is doing to them.

is the head gasket good between #3 and 4 ? compression test time.

just because there is gas dont mean there is a bad injection.
if it cant burn, then they flood, every time.

CEL lamp doing anything? Check engine lamp ON ,at keyonNOTSTARTED , and OFF running?
use scan tool and look for pending codes. key on. good tool can see pendings.. not JUST actives.
P300 P301, P302, up to 304 throwing?

did you know gas foot to floor, kills all injection! called UNFLOOD mode on all suz.

or are you saying/
car runs perfect all the time, except on very cold days it floods.?
car restarts perfect all time hot? what it does good is just as important.

Many issues for flooding.

ECT reads too high ohms (too low temperature) easy to measure,i have the chart.
Sky High fuel pressure. see my pump page.
leaking injectors. (tricky to find)
IAT not opening for start ( packed up with sludge and gunk) No air = instant flood

the ECU reads the resistance of ECT , calc. temperature of engine block an then calc. required fuel to start
and the opens IAC the correct amount. All these parts must work together in perfect cooperation for the really cold days. There is one more part. below Throttle body.
this is the IAC thermal, it opens WIDE on cold days. it lets in lots of air., if clogged it will not.


trying to diagnose this on conditions of plugs can throw you off (anyone)
maybe those cylinders are just burning the fuel , for some reason better.
cleaner plugs, tad more compression, etc. Luck of the draw ?


-20C is cold. -4F. (FRESH GAS , FRESH winter grade gas , vaporizes at a lower temp)

there are many issues.
EGR main leaks? stuck open a tad or held open with 1 tiny carbon chunk.

[grc1]

Thank you for your response. I will try all your sugestions and post if I find the problem.

[jtgh]

i edited it a tad

[grc1]

Hi it seems that more than one person I have talked to has the same problem.
My tracker only has a flooding problem only at -20 or colder. Once it has started I have absolutly no problems at all . Once the tracker's motor cools down to -20 , the problem resurfaces. Other than that every thing works perfect. No hesitation or rough idol and it also gets reaonably good winter gas milage.

I just check engine compresion and all cylinders roughly the same. About 150.

[jtgh]

i can only offer the 3 items common to this.

ECT is bad on low end.
IAT , same.
IAC sticking closed when real cold, just lick cold honey. the gunk in it gets real sticky.

either IAC. try a touch of trottle, just a light bit.

see what it does.

the ECU uses lots of gas when cold, because the gas vapor point flash point is poor.

the ECT /IAT are easy to test.

the IAC 's ,must be clean inside.

that all i can contribute to this issue.
cept.
oh yes,
good compression.
fat white/blue hot spark ! fresh ign parts.

[grc1]

I just got my tracker back from the shop and was told that the egr valve is not working properly. I was told that it is defictive.
This realy ticks me off because I had it replaced in september and they won't give me a new one. Anyway a Big thank you for all your help.

thank you

[jtgh]

the question is, what does, Told it was defective mean?
1: the egr main was bad
2: some other part was bad (mod, vsv, hose)
3: they found a clog after replacing all the expensive parts FIRST then you pay bill.
4: all the above.


in usa , we have laws, one is to demand the old parts be saved for you.
this prevents them for ripping you off
to some degree. "tell them PUT bad parts in a bag , I will NOT pay for the new part , got it.!"
Keep em ' honest.
some will say, my new part was a refurb, so tell the NO REFURBS. I demand the old part back.
dont take the BS about Core charges on EGR main. Pure bull. Snort Snort

Tell them at the get go, I want all my old parts back ,, not a request, I demand it.
check out your state laws on this.
In Calif. it is true and many other states and countries.

2 types of mech.
throw parts
the fix it.
or
find problem and fix it.

truth is, in usa, labor can cost more than parts, so which is cheap, dang if i know.
$100 per hr, or more....

down south labor is $3 hour so , it's a no brainer

YOu really dont know what the did.
if you did, you'd have a data point. something accurate.

with that ,we might find some other causative issue.


hope that saves someone from getting ripped.

cheers.

PS: also put on the order sheet, no refurbs , I want OEM parts. or at least want a choice before it is put in.
new,used, OEM ,china crap, aftermarket, and all points between.
Beck and others, do refurbs, like IAC's and the like.

[grc1]

Sadly I must agree with you on all of the points made. However I took it for granted that the shop I had been dealing with for some twenty years Has made a few BS policy changes and have now lost me as a customer. I will be shopping around for some were else to do the work that I am not capable of doing at this time.

Since I will be retiring soon, I have every intention of doing all future work myself. Which leads me to a totaly differint question and that is ... what is a resonably good engine analizer/code reader worth? Something a person/hobyst might use.

The last time I did any real auto repair (engine rebuilding) was in the 1970's and I have noticed that there has been a lot of changes since then.

I believe I have a lot to learn.
Thnak you for your time.

[jtgh]

sure , I wasnt dis-ing your mech, just the business in general.
there are either too busy or lazy to communicate.
It is best to ask what the actually did,
parts, and what did you clean if anything on the EGR paths. so you have a running history on what was done.
some here , have had to clean every inch, end to end to kill 400, It can be a pistol.

yes, you might find this a good start.
I have one and like it. (among other)
i use their hardware but i get the full blown software from thier supplier
hardware: basic Usb cable and ELM unit.
ScanTool.net, LLC - Scan Tools and PC-based OBD-II (OBD2) Interfaces
software: (they deleted there 3rd party page , too bad , big reason I boughT mine)



3RD PARTY
1.Scantool
2.Digimoto
3.Pcmscan
4.Obd2spy
and many more software cos that work with the elm chip , and more to come. mine is elm327. dont get less than that.#


i USE:
Home - Palmer Performance Engineering, Inc.

They sell their software (sub lic) to scantool.
so I bought it from them (palm) this source, because it runs on aLL ELM SCAN TOOLS.
ELM is the chip inside (open source , protocol too)

the scantool.net software blocks all clone hardware. (bad for me)
so i can use cloned EML hardware , new , or old. no restrictions on Palmer , they support the "full product"
no matter.

the Palmer is the best. IMHO. As is the Elm based products, it is not the fastest , but does work very well and is very stable.
You can also:
get an elm adaptor and then get dash display that can present what ever you like, Like full time MPG.
There are free designs for this and kits.

here is 2002 kick charging up a hill.
not MAF sensor ! sucking some serious air.

see attachment.

it can (palmer) export to MS xls format and then you can plot anything you want with M$Office or open office (free)
example.
http://carfix.stufftoread.com/sensor...MAF/hills1.jpg

that is excel plot

just a little to wet your whistle .

all the best
jerry