So I've finished replacing the head gasket, and put the engine back together. Poured in about 4 L of oil, then slid the radiator into place. Pulled out the plug of shop towel in the lower rad hose, and a pint of engine oil pours out. And it was clean-ish engine oil, like the stuff I just poured into the engine, not ugly milkshake-like stuff that was all over the place when disassembling...
Anyway, cleaned that up and connected the radiator hoses and then poured some water into the rad. After about 4 or 5 liters, I hear a gurgling, pouring sort of noise... Check the oil dipstick, and the level's up about a half inch from where it was when I finished filling the oil It looks like clean oil, but I haven't run the engine at all, so any water pouring into the block might just sink and not mix up yet...
So is my engine completely fubared, or is there any other possible explanation?
First, I am not a guru but here are my thoughts. Is the vehicle an automatic? If so the "oil" that came out of the radiator may have been trans fluid from the internal cooler. With that said you may not have a problem at all in that department. Next, as far as the oil level rising, this would not be an alarm if you checked the oil level instantly after filling the engine. Have you checked the compression after the gasket install? I cannot think of any way clean engine oil could get into the radiator. IMO even if you have installed the wrong gasket... this is not possible. Have you tried to start the engine? If so, how does it sound?
I had a vehicle once with a cracked head that let oil into the cooling. Usually that dont happen on a running vehicle as the coolant pressure is greater than the oil pressure. Of course from my veiw point of your vehicle I would be wanting to take it back down and check the gasket, I have never had one off of the 1.6 8 valve but it just may be on backwards or upside down. I am not speaking bad of your skills at all, but I myself have done some things that were just plain backward..Also, are you getting any fluid in any cylinder? You dont need luck, just a little more time to go back and double check everything..So have fun..
OK, yeah, the gurgling noise when filling the radiator could well be water pouring past the water pump and into the water jacket. And the oil level rising could just be that I didn't wait long enough for the fresh oil to make it down into the sump... But the pint of oil in the lower rad hose suggests a major, major leak, rather than just a pinhole or hairline somewhere...
Haven't tried running it yet, no. Perhaps if I run a compression test, that would circulate and mix everything, and then I can see if it's all milky? Or should I tear it down first, and see if I f'ed up the head gasket? If I did, should I put the same one in properly, or buy a new one?
I also did not replace the water pump. Does that interface with the oil system at all, in which case it might be leaking fluids back and forth?
Short of x-ray vision, is there a way to check the block and head for cracks? Or is that just what you conclude when nothing else fixes the problem?
never run any engine, with out doing a compression test. (after majors)
it's a 5sp not an automatic, thanks for signatures. thanks for doing that.
finding fresh clean oil is bad.
the two paths are head gasket and water jacket.
If you do not suspect freeze damage (only you know that) then it's the head gasket.
was engine overheated, yes?, then expect head warp. (my 2 guesses)
i would not put coolant in this engine.
Id, do a compression test, then rent a radiator leak down tester.
(the latter can be difficult to find correct rad cap adapter for kicks)
some people make up their own adapters.
old rad hose off truck to Rad filler neck then adapted down to pipe fittings , 1/2" or less
then to leak down gauge.(using only hose clamps)
thoughtS:
did you put a steel ruler, on the engine deck and make sure the feeler gauge test passes, per FSM. this test is in every book and online procedure for any head job.
Make an X across the head. slid feelers. GO , NO GO test it is.
same for head.
two 5 min. tests, are mandatory on any head job.
i have the spec for this if you need it.
a warped head, is bad news.
But pouring oil into the valve cover does NOT fill up the oil galleries, nor
put any pressure to the coolant areas (baring catastrophic cracks)
I presume you didn't do the spin over prime pump thing test either.
many folks would pull sparks and crank until they see oil pressure.
then after starting make sure there is proper lube on the top end.
one can loose all oil feed to top end, if
1: head gasket backwards or wrong one.
2: gallery plugged , on some kicks there is a head oil gallery ORIFACE that can clog with debrit , so very easy.
This is all SOP.
Standard Op. proced. for most mech.s.
tell more.
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OK, did some more searching and in another recent-ish thread, jtgh (or is it jgth? I keep messing that one up...) posted:
Quote:
there are more than one way to get the green slime in the oil.
(side issue:PVC clogged?, check first this will cause Herking black sludge )
1 block cracked
2 head cracked, common up North.
3: top air tube (16v only) has a heater in it, that can crack. (freeze will do it)
4: the intake man, cranking its internal water jacket. (freeze damage)
5: the intakes pass coolant from the block to the intake man. this gasket can fail and send antifreeze into the induction.
6. the head gasket ( 99% ).
it can be really frustrating to discover , after pulling down an engine to discover 1 to5 was the cause. ouch !
Is this an exhaustive list of ways oil and coolant can mix? Assuming I didn't f*** it up, I've fixed 6. I have an 8v, so 3. doesn't apply. If it's 1. I'll have to sell for parts and take the loss. Can't afford a new engine right now . If it's 2. or 4., probably ditto, though maybe I could find a new head or manifold at a price I could afford. That leaves 5... But that should send coolant into the cylinders via the intake valve. I don't see how it could send oil (especially so much oil) from the fill cap to the lower rad hose...
OK, when I had the engine open, I didn't have a guaranteed-tolerance straight-edge on hand, nor did I have skinny feeler gauges. I did put an aluminum ruler across both surfaces every which way, and my smallest 0.006" feeler didn't fit anywhere under it. I didn't see any gaps that even looked suspicious, either. But there was some minor pitting on a few spots, so I'm not getting a mirror finish, either.
I have no reason to suspect either freeze or overheating damage while I've owned it (since March), but of course have no idea of the history before that. It was running fine, though losing small amounts (maybe a pint per 1000 miles?) of both coolant and oil. I was getting around 10L/100km (23.5mpg) fuel economy.
So if I were to take the head off again, find that I did muck up the seal installation, could I flip it round and re-use it, or is the seal a crush-once, then replace sorta thing. Quite frankly, I'm broke and can't afford to sink any more money into this thing. To be entirely honest, I can't *really* afford to insure it, even, so maybe I should sell it for parts and cancel the registration
I don't have a leak-down gauge, though maybe the vacuum pump could be made to serve? I think it's obvious that the coolant system isn't sealed; would testing that tell me whether it's the gasket or a crack in the block/head, anyway?
I could also check out the oil gallery orifice, which I didn't pay any particular attention to, but again, the fact that one of the 8 pints of oil I poured into the valve cover came straight out the rad hose suggests something rather *big* as a hole...
I have many tools, and a compression gauge, but no shop air.
Not much time this weekend, but I'll drop off all my milkshake for recycling so I can re-drain things. It certainly seems that there is essentially uninterrupted flow between the oil and coolant areas... I tried adding another quart of water to the rad, now that the oil has had overnight to settle, and sure enough that bumped the oil another 1/2" up the dipstick. Seems like the oil is just floating on top of what water I've poured in through the rad, and is making its unobstructed way into oil galleries, somewhere. But I'll confirm that by pulling the oil drain plug out tomorrow or Monday, once I have some empty drain pans to catch it in...
I guess I can pull the sparkplugs, hook up the battery, unplug the fuel pump, and ground the coil, and then run compression tests on it, if you think cranking the motor over with the starter and it all full of water won't do it more damage than it already appears to have sustained...
ETA: Oh, and I *can't* unplug the injector, just in case, because the plug one would use to do that is missing and the DPO soldered the wires together... I replaced that with some heat-shrink butt-connectors, but it's still not readily unpluggable
no i dont recommend that. (comp test)
you think there is water in the cyclinders. then you are sunk. (no pun)
that head must have a HUGE Crack from the front or rear jackets straight in to
the head valve valley main drains.
Im sure it can be seen,
with the head off did you eye ball every corner and crevice and PORTS for cracks or
swelling signs.
you might just may only need a new head. if that was true may be a wrecker could sell you one for $100 or some kind soul here scare one up.
been known to happen. seen it time and time again.
lots of luck to you , cross fingers.
cheers.
PS; no Northern Provence can live with out one of these.
this is bad, isn't it?
It looks like clean oil, but I haven't run the engine at all, so any water pouring into the block might just sink and not mix up yet...
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