Odd starter problem

[JamesG]

Sigh... my troublesome Tracker is at it again.

Went to crank it this morning and when I turned the key I got nothing, no clunk of the solinoid and it lost all electrical power, no lights or nothing. Rotating the key back off and then on again didn't work, electrics were still dead.
I futzed with it for a while and found that if I removed the battery ground and then replaced it, the truck would "reset" and I would get dash lights again, but trying to start would cause it to go out again.

I assumed that its a bad starer and/or solinoid. By "bumping" the flywheel by letting the truck roll in gear, I got it to free up and it would start and run fine. But when I shut it off and then tried it again, the electrical system would crap out again.

So my question is, I figure the starter is toast, but this electrical behavior is making me wonder if its something else as well like the ECU? The electrical system shouldn't just die should it?

TIA again,
James

[CodyJ]

Okay; the truck will still turn over regardless of ECU.

You need to make sure your ground wire to top of stater top bolt is good and not damaged or corroded.

Check all fuses, fusable links... (that box near the battery!)
Check clutch safety switch.
Get a load tester and use it on the battery; charge er up if dead!

The test below will tell if you have an ignition problem and decide if you need to move onto further things besides the starter/solenoid!
Heres a test I would do. That little titty that goes to the solenoid, disconnect it and shove a positive titty of a volt meter tester, and ground the other half. Place it in the window. Do your trick to get it so you have "dash lights." Go turn the key and see what happens. IF you get 12volt while holding the key, its something to do with the starter/solenoid causing it not to start.

My Tracker just got soaked, I am vaccuming him out because hes not draining water LOL. Was fun in that thick water, had no rear power and 4x4 helped me in the end. I love these trucks and mine had a similiar problem... but when I turn the key, nothing. Turns out it was the starter and not the solenoid.

[JamesG]

Originally Posted by CodyJ

Okay; the truck will still turn over regardless of ECU.

Thats what I thought, just wanted to ask here. This thing is driving me crazy.

You need to make sure your ground wire to top of stater top bolt is good and not damaged or corroded.

Check.

Check all fuses, fusable links... (that box near the battery!)

Check.

Check clutch safety switch.

Err... If that were bad it would just not start. Right?

Get a load tester and use it on the battery.

Check.

The test below will tell if you have an ignition problem and decide if you need to move onto further things besides the starter/solenoid!

Yeah, I spent the better part of today trying to remove the #$@@*!*!!*! starter to bench test it, but the #$#@##@#!! lower bolt is stuck and stripped, so have been trying to coax it out with a pair of vice grips.

IF you get 12volt while holding the key, its something to do with the starter/solenoid causing it not to start.

My current theory is that a either the wires or the starter or solenoid (more likely) doesn't have enough umph to engage all the way so its getting stuck in that "shut everything else off so the starter can do its thing" phase.

Turns out it was the starter and not the solenoid.

Bummer, Haven't driven thru any bodies of water lately, but when I overhauled the motor, I did "clean" the starter. It was gunky so I used degreaser and brake cleaner on it. In hindsight that may not have been the best choice...

[CodyJ]

You're replying to someone who ripped his starter out 5x (bench tested it twice at advanced auto parts and it proved to work!).

I would put it back in, and it would work for 2-3 times, or maybe 3 days then stop... By the 2nd time of pulling it I replaced the solenoid with no fix. The very last time, I replaced the starter... it was apparently drawing to many amps.

My starter at the testing place worked okay, the 2nd time they told me it was a little weak but nothing to cause it not to start. I got home and shoved it back in and still it would repeat the problem. I got one of those testing units to turn over the starter via solenoid, or you can use a screw driver... but the one time I went to jump and make the starter just turn I got one hell of an arc and that was it. Which lead me to replacing the starter. It was bad. Its probably your best choice anyways, a remanfac. one is best. Heres the one I bought and I like the way it starts.

While we find your parts, please enter your ZIP Code at PartsAmerica.com

Should fit your model... but it looks exactly as pictured, and worked. And the reason I did buy a starter was because a solenoid cannot be returned but they let me trade it to buy a starter.

Goodluck.

"Err... If that were bad it would just not start. Right?"

Yeah... it wouldn't do anything, you can remove the speaker on the left driver side and get to it alot easier, put a fuse in it to easily hotwire it... but you can also try the screwdriver method.

Engine-will-not-crank-over
^ for more information about stuff and checking stuff more in detail than what I wrote.

[JamesG]

When/if I can get the bloody thing off the truck, I will probably just exchange it for a shiny fresh reman. Got to many other things to do to fool around with it.

[jtgh]

guessing at car type,....

ahhh, no LIGHTs,
d it lost all electrical power, no lights or nothing.
that is total power loss and the lights wire directly to the battery , no Ignition switch.
after all , you always want Lights to work , NO MATTER , right?

so you have a simple problem. ( MAIN HOT ALL TIMES FEED IS DEAD)

in electrical work, one always troubleshoots the easy problem first, not the difficult.
as many times they are related, as in this case. ( feed is dead)

Guessiing:
just off my head, your battery is bad, main battery cables or fuse link or fuse box in the right fender are bad. ( a volt meter will tell you exactly which in 1 minute flat)


facts:
1 60amp fuseable link to fuse box. and battery.
1 40 amp fuesable link to same. to cab loads.
here is the road map, see the large link on top left corner?
put a Volt meter meter on both sides of the big link,
bingo problem found.

if power to link is dead. then the cables ore battery are bad. (HL ON)
if the voltage on the battery + term goes to zero with HL on , then the terms are dirty.
if the battery post is actual is low, then the battery has open cells.
they can be good one minute and bad the next.
that is what old batteries love to do.

three VM probes and the answer is forthwith.

cheers.

look at below drawing , carefull this is the main distribution of power, see ?

[jtgh]

the true key to fixing cars is not assuming your car broke the same way as others.
Many failure modes there are....
the key is , using a logical troubleshooting procedure.

there are many failure modes, for a no start. Guessing will cost you lots of money.
Buy a voltmeter, take readings, Under load and post them. <<< that is all you need.
the answer will be easy.

the other poster had a rare shorted starter!
this causes the starter solenoid to NOT operate correctly ( does it matter? which is bad?)
most people just replace them as 1, after all the motor is 100 and the relay is $15,

the reason the solenoid does not like a shorted starter.
the solenoid , will not work unless it gets at least 8vdc.
a shorted starter , prevents that from happening.

as does a resistive (corroded inside cables) cables.
or a battery with weak cell in side, intermittant open cells are very very common.

put a VM on the solenoid big bolt and watch the values while cranking.

it will start at 12.65 and drop to maybe 10v. (usually higher at 70deg F).
and must crank robustly.
if drops too low, it can be many things,
and how you correct that depends on how fast you want it going again.

A flow:
many do this. ( starter solenoid key line (ST wire) tiny terminal goes to battery voltage when starting , proving this line works.) Ok , Cab side is doing its job.
next:
a new or known good battery, , fails. (free test 1) ( thanks to girl friend or buddy)
new cables, fail. ( $35) pretty cheap.) ( you could test time but many swap them)
new starter, fixed.

but the above is not applicable , this guy has a bad primary feed. for get the starter !

[JamesG]

Thanks for chiming in jtgh.

Ok...

Battery tests good 12.3v. Even took it down to the autoparts place and had them load test it. Passed.

Fuze links are all good.

Zero resistance between the grounds and the main cable to the starter. So the cables are good.

Here is where it gets wierd. When I went to test the relay circuit, probing the small wire that goes to the solinoid to ground (even ground to the battery!) registers .02v on the VM with the key on. Trying to start does nothing. Same .02v.
WTH?

Still haven't gotten the starter off the truck yet. All I accomplished this afternoon was to completely round off the bolt. Going to try to wedge a small dremel up in there and grind the head of the bolt off tomorrow...

[jtgh]

you have or had 2 problems , no wonder hair pulled out !
90'8v,5sp,2dr,4wd

HL must come one , no matter what !!! that is 1 problem.

the wire on the solinoid, that tiny little terminal, hot wire the sucker.
just chock the wheels, neutral or park, hand brake max, crawl under.
and jump big red to tiny spade (faston lug).
car MUST crank robustly 300 rpm is the spec. (room temperature)

if that test passes , do not pull the starter it is good.
that is the fastest and best test on any starter.

good battery , good cables, good starter , it will crank.
if not , you engine is hyroocked or the ring gear is mangled.

lets work both problems.

[jtgh]

i must also say this.

if the main feed is bad the power to the IGNITion SWITCH will BE BAD so the starter can never be keyed.

do your head lights HL, still fail , as you said before.?

HL ON not cranking , glowing.
HL on cranking and only very slight dim, not dropping out, bad.

(I cant hear car, a but you might pull coil wire and hand crank engine at 17mm front bolt.
make sure engine is free.
a stuck engine can dim out HL if on at same time as cranking.

The acid test for the above is to place a volt meter on white/green wire above.
input to FI (fuel injection fuse) or on the fuse itself and measure it , before and after cranking. then repeat with HL , on , same point.

but first do , hot wire of solenoid test first.

cheers.
we can whip it, whip it good...