E85 Conversion?

[pjf]

To save on fuel expenses, I’m considering converting my 1989 1.6L Sidekick to use E85 fuel which is 85% ethanol. It will still be able to use regular gasoline after the conversion but I will have a choice of fuels. The kit that I am looking at costs $370 at E85 Conversion Kits Change2E85.com. To find an E85 fuel station, I can use the web locator at Alternative Fuel Station Locator - Find. Since E85 costs a dollar per gallon less than regular gas, I may be able to recover the conversion cost within a year. Can anyone share their experiences with an E85 conversion? I need to know the good and the bad. Thanks!

[Hargis]

I am no ethanol expert, but I know that ethanol gets less mpg than 87 octane gasoline. I thought it was more expensive too.

You can get a hydrogen conversion kit for $1500 and run your car off of tap water (when it is above 32°).

[Bear95]

I don't the good or bad but my OM says not to run it. Then on the other side, ethanol is now being called a failure (cnn, fox news) because of the rise in food prices and the fact it takes as much energy to produce it as it provides. I look for to de discontinued soon. BTW, the corn fields are under water now.
Now in Brazile, they do it with sugar cane leftovers, much better product with a higher engery output.
Bear95

[jtgh]

new ecu ( or special injectors that confuse ECU) (they flow more fuel per PW second)

replace all the plastic in the gas tank.
new fuel gauge sender, (more plastic)
remove old fuel pump and put in E84 proof pump.

that plastic in there can NOT handle Ethanol. no way. even at 10% there are problems.


I am not sure how this conversion kit allows gasoline and E85. and all between, how can i do that with no senor,like the oEM use? how?

the best car is one that has the compression ratio altered to make ethonal much more efficient ,but then putting gas to this engine will PING like crazy.

I recommend finding out:
what will be my MPG with ethanol (hooch, LOL)
what will be my MPG on gasoline , after the conversion. (big secret )
where is the EPA cert page? and number and supplier ID.?
do i have to remove this before any smog inspections, silence.
they wont like those questions.

the OEM perfomane on Ethanol is 25% reduction in MPG . This product will be less.
reason:
no fuel ratio sensor.
no increased timing advance for ethanol.

also the price is not static, one law change, one subsidy retracted or expired and oops. it costs more, after all , it does.

looks like a garage business to me.

[pjf]

Today in Colorado Springs, E85 is $2.79 a gallon. While my car may not run the same distance with a gallon of E85, the cost per mile appears to be less.

I believe that the E85 conversion kit turns your vehicle into a FFV. Per a Dept. of Energy website (Flex-fuel Vehicles), “Flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) are designed to run on gasoline or a blend of up to 85% ethanol (E85).” I’m told that the conversion kit uses your vehicle’s computer and exhaust oxygen sensor to constantly adjust the air-fuel ratio. This allows your fuel-injected vehicle to use regular gas, E85 or any mixture of the two.

The “E85 Ethanol Myths” webpage (E85 Conversion Kits Change2E85.com) states that vehicles manufactured since the mid-1980’s can use E85 without increased wear on the engine, tank or fuel lines.

I am no expert on E85 and am not debating anyone. I just want to hear from other Sidekick and Tracker drivers about their experiences with E85 and E85 conversion.

[jtgh]

try suzuki , that myths page never asked the maker, it says right in the FSM ,do not exceed, 5% .due to fuel supply component issues. that plastics must be compatible.
you do not want a high pressure gas failure.
page 6C-4 - 1995 FSM,
states corrosion,,filter plugging.,deterioration of rubber components, and fuel system leaning.
they show a test for finding more than 5% , so 5%is the spec, max.
we run up to 10% now. so we are on the threshold .



30psi it runs at and is serious problem if it fails. ( hope it just kills the pump and not worse)

find out what the real mpg is on YOUR car, do not ask the maker , they will just tell you what you want to hear, ask other users.

I am all in favor of someone being experiementer. go for it. buy it , put it in .
spend 400 plus install price and keep in mind it might have cold start issues.
and you might not like the REAL MPG.
if everyone converts then E85 will be $5.00 a gallon and the E10 (pump gas) will be $2.79

supply and demand, will never be repealed, ever.

however in Idaho they have CNG dirt cheap.

Getting the AFr correct with external devices on a wide ranges of ECU's will be problematic. Each is different. by year. and calif,or federal models.
the video shows , all it is , is an injector pulse extender , it increases the fuel by 20% or what ever . across the board.
no sensors added.
no other connections , except power.

[jtgh]

i see what they did. its #2 (i was curious )
possibles.(no new ecu , predicate)
1-increase, fuel pressure. new pump and regulator or modify existing via vacuum reg. (Kludge'y)
2-injector pulse width modifier box ( long for alcohol and short for gasoline) ( scaler amp)
3- run ECT SENSOR higher in ohms, (colder reading)forcing rich with ethanol.
id dont think messing with the OXYsen will solve the mismatch with hooch.(ecu limit)


Money back guarantee? no really, it is up them them to decide that, dont count on it.
IMHO.

there is one alternative (by class)

Megasquirt Stand alone ECU, has full support of Ethanol. (and many others)
cheap , easy to program (after learning it 1 time) and you can even add that
special E85 fuel detector and swap maps on the fly just like OEM new cars do.
Down side is the tuning cost. but there are some really good software tools to get close.
it can cost as low at $250 for the kit. ( i have one working)
I also know how to build the quick swap PNP cable so you can put it on the car
and swap it back in 5 minutes.
no cutting stock cables , no buying any new sensors, i measured all sensors.
You will have to abandon the MAF sensor, as that has no data tables published.
The MS2V3 has a built in MAP sensor, this will create perfect mixtures for both gas or ethanol.
just add the missing fuel density sensor , to scale the injections based on % of mix.

this Gold Box:
one last , questions, how does the system tell , if you have 1/2 a tank of E10 and E85.
E10 (standard pump gasoline)
( you need that expensive gaso line sensor to do that)

that is my idea.
I will read your whole link but it fails to have any product data sheets ,specifications, or theory of operation.
Does it work at all altitudes and temperatures? what are those limits.
facts: (review of what I see)
the guarantee does not cover, "actually making ethanol work" only that it is not hard broken causing a dead car. 30 day limit on returns (move fast)
who are they , 1 year old , they are: their web page.
where is there support page, or parts replacement page, NONE! (save 1 connector)
where is there specifications page or product data sheet.
there EPA or CARB certification for the legal modifications of smog equipment. none.
he mentions the EPA cert but the documents are not available, (I will ask EPA !)
their kit does not show how to change between TBI or MPI engines, how can that be.? He says that's YOUR problem. ( nice huh?)
there video clearly shows it is a TYPE 2 , Injector fooling device.
it takes the input fuel injection and scales it for E85
no instruction manual online to down load ( this is very suspecious to me, )
that alone would stop me dead.
power , ground, and injector (buffer box)
he is cagey, he blocks all questions on youtube, he dont like.
i asked some simple questions.

---------------------------------------their web site-------------------------
Registrant: (public data, via whois look up.
The Proof Positive Group
16446 Lafayette St
Thornton, Colorado 80602
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: CHANGE2E85.COM
Created on: 15-May-07
Expires on: 15-May-09
Last Updated on: 15-May-08

Administrative Contact:
Virtue, David davidv@theproofpositive.com
The Proof Positive Group
16446 Lafayette St
Thornton, Colorado 80602
United States
(303) 544-9494

Technical Contact:
Virtue, David davidv@theproofpositive.com
The Proof Positive Group
16446 Lafayette St
Thornton, Colorado 80602
United States
(303) 544-9494

Domain servers in listed order:
DNS1.PROSTORES.COM
DNS2.PROSTORES.COM
DNS3.PROSTORES.COM

[jtgh]

one more
with out the fuel line fuel density sensor
the gasoline only usage will be worse MPG , way worse because the injectors will be
pulsing with ethonal long pulse widths.

the unit is a black box, it has only 4 inputs and 4 outputs.
it is a simple scaling device. for injection.


why , because there is no way for IT to KNOW how to scale based on fuel density.
E0 to E100 and every mix.
that is the ECU's job to do that, under all conditions.

[pjf]

The installation instructions are at: E85 Conversion Kits Change2E85.com. I'm not aware that any new sensors are needed. The emission oxygen sensor should suffice in determining if the air-fuel mixture needs to be richer or leaner. I'd certainly like to know which conversion kits include a fuel density sensor and how they perform.

I don't have a service manual but while the owner's manual does mention 10% ethanol and 5% methanol limits, it does not mention any fuel line degradation associated with higher alcohol concentrations. I will check the service manual when I have an opportunity.

I was able to get the retailer to call me back soon after leaving a voice message with the toll-free number. You can certainly do the same. Let me know if he is able to answer your questions. I do appreciate how thorough you are when approaching an engineering problem.

[jtgh]

thanks , i couldnt find it hard data on this device. , but the instructions are , unplug inj. plug this in to old conns. and 2 battery feeds. little to that, really.

E85 in standard engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
25% less mpg. on OEM flex fuel cars.running ethanol

the command authority of the oxygen sensor is in the realm of %10 to 15% max.
and sure it will work if the box Increases the Pulse width to this sweet spot.
but how do you do than with unknow mix ? That is impossible , right?
I understand ECU',A Pulse width rescaler kludge has a very limited utility.

i did the math. (with 25% loss of mpg) in one year, 10,000 miles.
that is a savings at todays price of fuel of $107 .
so the pay back is 3 years for DIY, and 4yr for have someone install it.
i used $4.04 for gas, and $2.79 for hooch.
not worth the trouble. and if it messes up 1 time , for sure not worth it.
cold weather, hi altitude (CO.)

I bet the pure gasoline usage is way higher after the mod. ( hooch shortages happen)
how could it not be.?
with Ethanol the OEM's cars are advanced, the IGN timing, and get 25% less.
this box box is not going to use anywhere near the efficiency of the OEM design.
so th effeciency will be worse. with the Kludge box.

i asked the EPA for his cert page. i will wait on that.

if this box can not attain the 25% and falls short ,the $107 goes bye bye.
and the usage of gas only, guanantees that too. NO fuel sensor INCLUDED.!

Any product with no theory of ops, is just snake oil, until an independant test lab confirms the truth. You can see he selling out of a garage , right. ?

I do agree that if you must run hooch(old slang for Alcohol) , then by all means , jump in , the waters fine? LOL.

for me I get better savings running lean burn. Hot 195d thermostat and high pressure tires.
and speeds below 45 mostly, almost never take my lean car on the highway.
i have a bullet car for that. For dodging cell phone "lost souls" and Truckers !

the trick is 1000 different gimic boxs to check out, which one , will it be?
Some operators manuals are very old and donot mention flex fuels, but the fsm covers
a wider range of geology and markets, and has the full spec. contained in it.
my 95 ops guide , is devoid of most useful information. just general how to drive your car and things. In 95 was there ethanol at any pump in the US, for regular citizens.
I dont think so, but the FSM covers that because that is not true all over the world.

BUT MINE DOES ! read below. can send you the full PDF too.
page 1-1 of my operators manual covers 95' year, states.
MTBE up to 15%
Ethanol (grain alcohol) no greater than 10%
methanol, no greater than 5% and must have corrosion inhibors apporoved by suzuki.

suzuki said it , and I believe it. so there. LOL

the FSM mentions exactly that, messes up "plastics and rubber and has serious corrosion problems" ( ethonal sucks water like a spunge< my comment)

cheers